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 Post subject: Opening problems for AI: Problem 39
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:31 am 
Honinbo

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Black to play

Which way?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which way should Black approach the :wc: stone? At a or at b?

Enjoy! :)

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— Winona Adkins

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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 39
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:57 am 
Gosei
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AI have taught us a number of things including the prevalence of sente and the heuristic of efficiency.

Efficiency is probably the key argument here: it's the lower black wall that needs to be made efficient. The top right stone is flexible and is more yearning for a reinforcement than for an extension.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Best
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . 3 . . b . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . c . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O O . O O X X . . a . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The invasion of the lower right at A will probably die, with those black stones blocking off the route at the lower side. An invasion at B can still be met with a flexible answer, cutting or bending around.

If Black can jump to C, het gets a nice "barmkin".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Not so good
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X X X . . . X . a . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The approach from the other side is neither fish nor flesh. It doesn't reinforce the corner. :w2: renders Black's wall inefficient. Later White can further scoop out Black's territory at A. An invasion at B will likely give Black a wall from which :b1: is an inefficient extension.


Last edited by Knotwilg on Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 39
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:15 am 
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I'm torn between "Push the enemy towards your thickness" and "thickness needs an extension". Maybe I should stop listening to proverbs and think for myself :scratch:

While I don't like the whole-board situation for black (the H4 stone makes me visibly uncomfortable), I would choose option B, hoping to get a move at H5 in at some point or another, creating a large moyo that white will have to reduce at some point. This puts the black stone in the upper right in a bit of a pinch, but the AI has shown us that 4-4 stones are surprisingly resilient.

But honestly, I'm choosing B just because A's prospects seem even more dismal. Black's upper-right corner would not be secure yet, and he can kiss any dreams of a large territory on the upper side goodbye, given the low white stone already being in place at F17.

I'm really curious about the answer to this one, and whether ELF decides to do anything about that H4 stone sticking its head out...


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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 39
Post #4 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:30 pm 
Judan

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Is this a trick question? Neither?


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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 39
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:42 pm 
Gosei

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It is a half a point question.


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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 39
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:50 pm 
Gosei

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Why does AI prefer the b direction by half a point?

If a similar strong black position would be more closed at the bottom, aka around the R3 corner ;-), it wouldn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 39
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:02 pm 
Lives in gote

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Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . c c . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . c c . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . c c . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm going for 'b', largely because of the extra potential in the area around 'c'. When I started studying pro games more seriously I was struck by how many points showed up in those areas.



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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 39
Post #8 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:56 am 
Honinbo

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The game is GoGoD 2003-01-20o, between Otake Hideo, 9 dan (W), and Oya Koichi, 9 dan.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Drive towards thickness? Mistake.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 4 , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . e a . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . c b . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X X X . . . X . d . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Elf reckons that :b37: loses 12½% to the approach at a, making it a definite mistake.

9 dans do not blindly follow proverbs, OC, but surely the one about driving the opponent's stones towards thickness was in the back of Oya's mind. And he was surely aware of the threat of :w38: to slide to b or otherwise take advantage of the weakness of Blacks' corner by playing at c or d, for instance. It is likely that he planned to reply to :w38: with :b39: before he decided on :b37:. Unfortunately, Elf regards :b39: as losing 9% by comparison with the kosumi at c, which threatens the shoulder hit at e.

Otake's play does not escape criticism, either. :w38:, a two space extension that makes a base, and :w40:, a one space jump, are bread and butter plays, but they are minor errors, or at least questionable. Elf reckons that :w38: loses 5% to par and :w40: loses 6%. IMO the bots are going to lead to a profound reconsideration of what we think we know about go, something that by human progress alone would have taken centuries to accomplish.

Let's take another look at :w40:, through Elf's eyes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm40 Variation for :w40:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 3 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . O . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w40: switches to the bottom left, threatening to cut off three Black stones. :b41: replies strongly by crawling into the White corner. :w42: bolsters the White group with sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 Variation for :w40:, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 4 O 1 . |
$$ | . . O O . . O . . . . . . . . . 2 X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w48: returns to the right side and blocks on the 2d line, making some territory. By comparison with :w40:, White in this line of play on the right side makes territory and counters the influence of the Black wall.

Next, Elf's mainline variation for :w38: is instructive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Threaten the corner first
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O 6 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . O O . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X X X . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 X . . O . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w38: plays kikashi against the corner before making a base with :w40:. (If Black plays at 40 instead of blocking the corner, White can push into the corner at 39.) :b41: undercuts the White base, but :w42: simply blocks on top. :w44: switches to the bottom left.

Top choice: Approach from the bottom

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Extend from the wall
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a W . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b37: extends from the bottom corner. The fact that it might be close to the Black wall is no big deal. In fact, Black is building a territorial moyo.

:w38: switches to the bottom left, and plays into the center, as well. Takagawa points out that it is by no means necessary to make a base or extend from a side wedge like :wc:, even though the ability to do so is part of the rationale for the play. Takagawa argues that preventing Black's ideal extension to :wc: or a is good enough. OTOH, the bots don't think much of those extensions early in the game. ;) Anyway, in the mainline variation White tenukis and later :b41: plays an enclosure cum 3 space pincer against :wc:.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm42 Mainline, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . 4 8 . . . . . . 6 . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . X O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X X X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . O O . O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The hane, :w42:, is a strong play dividing Black in two on the left side and attacking both ways. :b43: bolsters his stones in the bottom left with sente. Then :b47: extends Black's territorial moyo into the center, as anticipated by Knotwilg, pwaldron, and, I suppose, John Fairbairn. :) White now continues the attack on the left side.

I would have chosen the approach of :b37: in this game until I ran across a Jowa game years ago where Black played an side extension from a wall that seemed to me to be too close and thus a bit inefficient, and then played a one space jump from it, making territory from thickness. :o I decided that maybe Jowa was right and I wasn't. ;)

I think that the bots like the way top players in the 19th century handled play on the side over the way that top players in the 20th century did. This is another example, it seems to me. :)

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 39
Post #9 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:14 am 
Tengen

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Bill, what hardware do you use?

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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 39
Post #10 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:39 am 
Honinbo

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RobertJasiek wrote:
Bill, what hardware do you use?


All this comes from the Elf GoGoD commentaries. I use them because I can explore dozens of games per day, and they use many rollouts. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Opening problems for AI: Problem 39
Post #11 Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:02 pm 
Gosei

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FatKata:
Attachment:
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bill39b.JPG [ 131.68 KiB | Viewed 59 times ]

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bill39aa.JPG [ 131.39 KiB | Viewed 59 times ]


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