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 Post subject: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Post #1 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:38 am 
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Shin Jinseo (Black) vs. Park Geunho (White) http://go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/110919

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . a O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black did not find the best answer and made a move to "a"

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 Post subject: Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Post #2 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:53 am 
Lives in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X b . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . a O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Looks like b picks up an extra liberty to win the capturing race.

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 Post subject: Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Post #3 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:24 pm 
Gosei
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Just Q12? If White plays Q18 or Q19 next then Black O19.

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 Post subject: Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Post #4 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:39 pm 
Lives in sente

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IGS: kvasir
Maybe I figured it out?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . 1 X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:b1: was what I thought it was but I didn't post because it didn't look much better than removing a liberty. Now I think :b3: is the key to get it to work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Black wins capturing race.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 1 3 X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Resistance is futile.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 O 6 3 5 X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c It is really forced, right?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 3 1 X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This post by kvasir was liked by 2 people: dany, Knotwilg
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 Post subject: Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Post #5 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:16 pm 
Dies with sente

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Rank: IGS 4 dan
pwaldron wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X b . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . a O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Looks like b picks up an extra liberty to win the capturing race.


Yes

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 Post subject: Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Post #6 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:16 pm 
Dies with sente

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jlt wrote:
Just Q12? If White plays Q18 or Q19 next then Black O19.


Yes

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 Post subject: Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Post #7 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:48 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 111
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Was liked: 12
Rank: IGS 4 dan
kvasir wrote:
Maybe I figured it out?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . 1 X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:b1: was what I thought it was but I didn't post because it didn't look much better than removing a liberty. Now I think :b3: is the key to get it to work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Black wins capturing race.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 1 3 X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Resistance is futile.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 O 6 3 5 X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c It is really forced, right?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 3 1 X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Great idea! And the best black response. Black +30 (the last diagram)

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 Post subject: Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Post #8 Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 6:21 pm 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
I was told that this was an error in the move order of transcribing of the game. Apparently, after white P9 in the game, B L17, W T14, B T17, W Q19 was the order actually played in the game.

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be immersed

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 Post subject: Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Post #9 Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:35 am 
Dies with sente

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Kirby wrote:
I was told that this was an error in the move order of transcribing of the game. Apparently, after white P9 in the game, B L17, W T14, B T17, W Q19 was the order actually played in the game.


Actually, there was an error in the game record.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AagL0YHjtpc&t=2194s

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 Post subject: Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Post #10 Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:15 am 
Oza

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A somewhat different aspect. The Japanese Ryusei uses 30s/move + 10x1m. The Korean Ryusei (this Yongseong) uses 30 min each play 20s Fischer increment.

How do the two systems compare when it comes to tricky capturing races like this?

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 Post subject: Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Post #11 Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:40 am 
Gosei
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Assuming it's a game with 240 moves and both players use all their time, both last at most 140 minutes. However, players at the Ryusei competition probably move many times before 30 seconds so the Yongseong looks more comfortable. Anyway in the mentioned game, both players had more that 20 minutes left on their clock.

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 Post subject: Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Post #12 Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 2:16 am 
Oza

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Just tidying up the latest GoGoD update for SmartGo, I noticed something that does not seem to have been mentioned yet.

The capturing race that features in the game here (Pak v Sin) appeared previously (2023-07-28) in the 3rd Korean Women's Strongest (Losers' Section Final) beyween O Yu-chin and Kim Eun-chi. It would appear that it already has something akin to joseki status!

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