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 Post subject: Dame filling for dummies #2
Post #1 Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:38 pm 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm224
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . O O X . . . . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X . X . . . X O O O X |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X X O X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O O O O O O X , X O O |
$$ | . . . X O O O O . . . X O . O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | X O X O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X |
$$ | O O O O . . . . . . . . O X . O O X . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . O X X |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . , . . . . . , . O X |
$$ | X . X O O X O O . . . O . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . X X O X X X O O O X O O . . O . O |
$$ | . . X O . O X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X O X . . X O O X O O |
$$ | . X O O . O . O O 1 O X X O . . O O X |
$$ | . . X O . O X O . O O X O O O O X X X |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O . O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . O . O X X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Any protective plays needed?

If so, where?

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. ;)


This post by Bill Spight was liked by 2 people: Bonobo, emeraldemon
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 Post subject: Re: Dame filling for dummies #2
Post #2 Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:59 pm 
Gosei
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the cut around b6 will need eventually

Edit:

and for white, there's almost something at L9

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 Post subject: Re: Dame filling for dummies #2
Post #3 Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:08 pm 
Oza
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Presumably when White connected at 224 in the game both sides had already read out that Black can win the ko below and therefore does not have to connect. The gap between that and my measly skills is so depressing that I can't go any further. Merry Christmas? Bah humbug I say! :blackeye:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . O O X . . . . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X . X . . . X O O O X |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X X O X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O O O O O O X , X O O |
$$ | . . . X O O O O . . . X O . O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | X O X O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X |
$$ | O O O O . . . . . . . . O X . O O X . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . O X X |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . , . . . . . , . O X |
$$ | X . X O O X O O . . . O . . . . . O X |
$$ | 1 2 X X O X X X O O O X O O . . O . O |
$$ | . . X O . O X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X O X . . X O O X O O |
$$ | . X O O . O . O O . O X X O . . O O X |
$$ | . . X O . O X O . O O X O O O O X X X |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O . O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . O . O X X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: Dame filling for dummies #2
Post #4 Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:14 pm 
Gosei
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ez4u wrote:
Presumably when White connected at 224 in the game both sides had already read out that Black can win the ko below and therefore does not have to connect. The gap between that and my measly skills is so depressing that I can't go any further. Merry Christmas? Bah humbug I say! :blackeye:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . O O X . . . . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X . X . . . X O O O X |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X X O X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O O O O O O X , X O O |
$$ | . . . X O O O O . . . X O . O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | X O X O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X |
$$ | O O O O . . . . . . . . O X . O O X . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . O X X |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . , . . . . . , . O X |
$$ | X . X O O X O O . . . O . . . . . O X |
$$ | 1 2 X X O X X X O O O X O O . . O . O |
$$ | . . X O . O X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X O X . . X O O X O O |
$$ | . X O O . O . O O . O X X O . . O O X |
$$ | . . X O . O X O . O O X O O O O X X X |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O . O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . O . O X X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't take into account the ko count (hey, I'm just SDK) but with all dame filled it seems even-ish, or better for W

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 Post subject: Re: Dame filling for dummies #2
Post #5 Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:13 am 
Gosei
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This one doesn't even need the dame to be filled I think, unless black is willing to fight the ko. With that bent 4 in the upper right the ko is probably bad for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm224
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . O O X . . . . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X . X . . . X O O O X |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X X O X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O O O O O O X , X O O |
$$ | . . . X O O O O . . . X O . O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | X O X O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X |
$$ | O O O O . . . . . . . . O X . O O X . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . O X X |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . , . . . . . , . O X |
$$ | X 2 X O O X O O . . . O . . . . . O X |
$$ | 1 . X X O X X X O O O X O O . . O . O |
$$ | . 5 X O . O X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . . O X X O X . . X O O X O O |
$$ | . X O O . O . O O O O X X O . . O O X |
$$ | . 4 X O . O X O . O O X O O O O X X X |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O . O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . O . O X X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This dame is also sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm224
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . O O X 3 6 7 . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X 4 X 5 . . X O O O X |
$$ | . . X O O O 1 X X X O X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O O O O O O X , X O O |
$$ | . . . X O O O O . . . X O . O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | X O X O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X |
$$ | O O O O . . . . . . . . O X . O O X . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . O X X |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . , . . . . . , . O X |
$$ | X . X O O X O O . . . O . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . X X O X X X O O O X O O . . O . O |
$$ | . . X O . O X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X O X . . X O O X O O |
$$ | . X O O . O . O O O O X X O . . O O X |
$$ | . . X O . O X O . O O X O O O O X X X |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O . O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . O . O X X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I couldn't find any way for black to get anything in the middle.

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 Post subject: Re: Dame filling for dummies #2
Post #6 Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:52 am 
Gosei
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emeraldemon wrote:
This one doesn't even need the dame to be filled I think, unless black is willing to fight the ko. With that bent 4 in the upper right the ko is probably bad for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm224
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . O O X . . . . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X . X . . . X O O O X |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X X O X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O O O O O O X , X O O |
$$ | . . . X O O O O . . . X O . O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | X O X O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X |
$$ | O O O O . . . . . . . . O X . O O X . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . O X X |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . , . . . . . , . O X |
$$ | X 2 X O O X O O . . . O . . . . . O X |
$$ | 1 . X X O X X X O O O X O O . . O . O |
$$ | . 5 X O . O X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . . O X X O X . . X O O X O O |
$$ | . X O O . O . O O O O X X O . . O O X |
$$ | . 4 X O . O X O . O O X O O O O X X X |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O . O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . O . O X X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This dame is also sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm224
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . O O X 3 6 7 . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X 4 X 5 . . X O O O X |
$$ | . . X O O O 1 X X X O X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O O O O O O X , X O O |
$$ | . . . X O O O O . . . X O . O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | X O X O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X |
$$ | O O O O . . . . . . . . O X . O O X . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . O X X |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . , . . . . . , . O X |
$$ | X . X O O X O O . . . O . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . X X O X X X O O O X O O . . O . O |
$$ | . . X O . O X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X O X . . X O O X O O |
$$ | . X O O . O . O O O O X X O . . O O X |
$$ | . . X O . O X O . O O X O O O O X X X |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O . O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . O . O X X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I couldn't find any way for black to get anything in the middle.


there's nothing in the middle, but there's a lot of aji there with the 3 stones at K9. But doesn't seem to work at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Dame filling for dummies #2
Post #7 Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:52 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . O O X . . . . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X . X . . . X O O O X |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X X O X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O O O O O O X , X O O |
$$ | . . . X O O O O . . . X O . O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | X O X O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X |
$$ | O O O O . . . . . . . . O X . O O X . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . O X X |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . , . . . . . , . O X |
$$ | X 3 X O O X O O . . . O . . . . . O X |
$$ | 1 2 X X O X X X O O O X O O . . O . O |
$$ | . . X O . O X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O X X O X . . X O O X O O |
$$ | . X O O . O . O O O O X X O . . O O X |
$$ | . . X O . O X O . O O X O O O O X X X |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O . O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . O . O X X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Dave Sigaty nailed the key point, which is the threat of this ko. (This was a kyu-kyu game, and White missed the opportunity to play :w1: earlier.) A protective play in this corner is urgent.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Ko variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . O O X . . . . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X . X . . . X O O O X |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X X O X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O O O O O O X , X O O |
$$ | . . . X O O O O . . . X O . O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | X O X O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X |
$$ | O O O O . . . . . . . . O X . O O X . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . O X X |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . , . . . . . , . O X |
$$ | X 7 X O O X O O . . . O . . . . . O X |
$$ | 1 2 X X O X X X O O O X O O . . O . O |
$$ | 5 6 X O . O X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . . O X X O X . . X O O X O O |
$$ | . X O O . O . O O O O X X O . . O O X |
$$ | 4 . X O . O X O . O O X O O O O X X X |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O . O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . O . O X X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . O O X . . . . . X O . X . |
$$ | . . X X X O O X X . X B . . X O O O X |
$$ | . . X O O O . X X X O X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X X X O O O O O O X , X O O |
$$ | . . . X O O O O . . . X O . O X X X . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . |
$$ | X O X O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X |
$$ | O O O O . . . . . . . . O X . O O X . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . O X X |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . , . . . . . , . O X |
$$ | X . X O O X O O . . . O . . . . . O X |
$$ | . . X X O X X X O O O X O O . . O . O |
$$ | . . X O . O X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . B X O . . O X X O X . . X O O X O O |
$$ | . X O O . O . O O O O X X O . . O O X |
$$ | . . X O . O X O . O O X O O O O X X X |
$$ | . . X O O . O . O . O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . O . O X X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black needs to make two protective plays. (There are other local points that also work.)

I also did not find any need for White to protect in the center. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Dame filling for dummies #2
Post #8 Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:30 am 
Oza
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Bill Spight wrote:
...This was a kyu-kyu game...

WHAT!!! Our Bill Spight offering a kyu-kyu game with both sides missing the point rather than some obscure 18th century classic with both sides reading the ending out perfectly? What next?! :blackeye:

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 Post subject: Re: Dame filling for dummies #2
Post #9 Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:19 am 
Honinbo

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Well, actually, Brother Dave, if I did write a book called Dame Filling for Dummies, it would have a lot of DDK games. Heck, when I was a 4 kyu and started studying pro games, I was frequently unable to fill the dame correctly and get the same result as the game record said. ;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. ;)


This post by Bill Spight was liked by 2 people: ez4u, RBerenguel
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