Handicap "joseki"

Boidhre · #1

This came up in a 2 stone handicap game at the club tonight against a visiting Korean player.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I've never seen the above before. I can't find any record of it either. It felt like an overplay or trickplay but I wasn't sure how to handle it. I wasn't comfortable with how the next sequence went, I don't remember the exact moves after this. Any comments on the bottom, especially the bottom right are appreciated.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm4 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 7 1 3 . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . 4 . . . . . 8 . 2 O X . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I can remember the first 50 moves, I'll include them in an sgf here for those who are curious.

EdLee · #2

Hi Boidhre,

When :b10:

connects, the local result seems to be good for Black;
or at least B has little to be dissatisfied.

:b14:

How about R5 ?

Uberdude · #3

The result in the game was good for black when you connected with 6 (in diagram, 10 in game) blighting the approach stone. However, if white had simply pulled back with 3 instead of the fancy hane black would be left in a poor low position. This is the simple, proper way for black to get an advantage from white's non-joseki outer attachment: simply connect your corner to your pincer stone and make some nice territory. White then ought to then extend from his wall on the lower side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X . . | $$ . . . 6 . . . | $$ . . 5 O 4 . . | $$ . . 3 2 . . . | $$ . . 1 X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ --------------+[/go]

ez4u · #4

You atari and connection seemed good. I think that I would have continued with 12 at N4.

Here are the two pro games in my database with the outside attachment in an otherwise empty quadrant...
Not too surprisingly the pros are reluctant to butt their heads into the pincered stone as Uberdude recommends. It might be the best move, but their friends would laugh at them!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Wang Xi (white) - Cai Jing; China Weiqi League; 2010-07-03 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 O 1 . . 8 . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . 7 , 3 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Zhou Ruiyang (white) - Guo Wenchao; 1st Milly Cup; 2013-08-09 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 , 3 . 8 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . X . O O . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . X O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O X X X O O X X O . O , . . . | $$ | . . X O O O O O X X O O O O X X . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . O . X X X X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · #5

ez4u, I think the first one is easy to see why white doesn't do the ugly head butt, black would be happy to get the wall facing the top side as he has a nice moyo going on there with the top right corner and right side. And in the second white is already super-thick on the left side so connecting there is not valuable but overconcentrated, the pincer stone is already strong and has no fear of a counterpincer, so white prefers to create a group in the more valuable open space of the top side. So although the quadrants were empty the rest of the board wasn't and had a big effect. So by looking at pro games you will likely tend to find the outside attachment in the special situations that the bump isn't a good answer, because if the bump is a good answer the pro won't have played the attachment. It is is true though that the bump is short of liberties (similar to avalanche bump) so white has nice endgame with the hane-connect.

Boidhre · #6

Thanks guys. What left me uncertain was how I thought Q4 was White's only move there for :w3:

and how incomplete the position felt after the white tenuki and follow-up wise for :b14:

I was unsure how to proceed. I considered R5 but didn't see a follow-up I liked after White N4 or similar. Yeah, ez4u, I wanted to continue at N4, some irrepressible instinct to respond made me go back to C3 with :b12:

.

Handicap "joseki"

Who is online