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 Post subject: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Post #1 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:16 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . W . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

It's something I've noticed for years but never really put much thought into until just recently. It's also mentioned briefly here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?44PointDistantH ... wPincer:v2

Personally I don't play it very much, because I don't "get" it and it kind of annoys me how easily Black gets territory with a move like 'a' or 'b'. The only advantage I see with this move really is that it's unusual, so at best it might be something that makes Black a little uncomfortable. That's really all I have. However, since it's so common in handicap games, I must be missing something here...so what's the meaning and value behind this move?

edit: I just moved this thread to Study Groups, since I think it's more appropriate there.

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 Post subject: Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Post #2 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:46 pm 
Judan

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My impression has always been that the move's purpose is to play something that makes black uncomfortable.

Usually black responds around 'a'. You can do another approach on the bottom, again on the other side. If black again answers calmly, you can cap the bottom stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 . . . X . . 1 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


It doesn't mean it's good for white, as far as I know, but sometimes it freaks black out.

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 Post subject: Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Post #3 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:27 pm 
Judan

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In a high handicap game, every play is a losing play. ;) So I can't say why the two space high approach is popular.

But it does figure in the Okigo Jizai. Here are a few games. Comments by Hattori Inshuku. :)






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 Post subject: Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Post #4 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:41 pm 
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When a 5d played it against me in a 4-stone game, he said it was just to keep things flexible, avoid settling shapes, and avoid joseki. The more pro-level moves Black can play automatically, the fewer moves White has to catch up. :)

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Post #5 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:17 pm 
Judan
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Quote:
The more pro-level moves Black can play automatically, the fewer moves White has to catch up. :)
Is there an an ambiguity here...

The more AlphaGo-class moves B plays...

(a) ...the harder it is for W ( W needs more moves to catch up ) ;

(b) ...the easier it is for W ( W needs fewer moves to catch up ) ;

(c) ...the harder it is for W ( W has fewer options available to catch up ) ;

Pretty sure the intended meaning is (a/c) ; maybe I'm reading an ambiguity where there is none.

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 Post subject: Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Post #6 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:18 pm 
Tengen

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You're right that the sentence syntactically could be read either way but I think it's clear in context.

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 Post subject: Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Post #7 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:51 pm 
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Solomon wrote:
Personally I don't play it very much, because I don't "get" it and it kind of annoys me how easily Black gets territory with a move like 'a' or 'b'.


I don't have much experience playing this side of heavily handicapped games, but I was once told that an advantage of this move is that for some players it can elicit a greedy 'c'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . W . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Post #8 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:16 pm 
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The way I look at this: the advantage of white's two-space approach is that it clearly separates black's stones on the immediate right and left of it in your example, and plans to attack one or the other at some point soon.
By comparison, a more traditional keima approach would give black the option to cap and kind of loosely connect his stones.

The disadvantage of the two-space approach is that it doesn't go for territory, like you mentioned, but I guess white cannot win on territory in high handicap games anyway, it needs to mount some large scale attack.

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Post #9 Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:48 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Quote:
The more pro-level moves Black can play automatically, the fewer moves White has to catch up. :)
Is there an an ambiguity here...

The more AlphaGo-class moves B plays...

(a) ...the harder it is for W ( W needs more moves to catch up ) ;

(b) ...the easier it is for W ( W needs fewer moves to catch up ) ;

(c) ...the harder it is for W ( W has fewer options available to catch up ) ;

Pretty sure the intended meaning is (a/c) ; maybe I'm reading an ambiguity where there is none.

I meant "the harder it is for W (there are fewer exchanges during which W can gain on B, so he'll have to gain more with every exchange on average)".

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Post #10 Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:08 am 
Gosei

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Here's a pro example in an even game - see Black 15. Play immediately thereafter followed typical handicap style, but White 20 was a deviation. In a handicap game White would generally hane at N9 in order to force Black into bad shape (am empty triangle).

There was a commentary by Suzuki Tamejiro. He said the purpose of the "eye-catching" invasion at 15 was to disrupt White's sphere of influence. Another possibility was first to probe low at S5, in the expectation of eliciting S3, and then to decide on a play around 15. I found it interesting that he spoke only of a high move 15 or a very low one, with no reference to the third line.

As to White 20, Suzuki explained that White can indeed induce bad shape with the N9 hane (or even P8), but then he has no good follow-up.

The ensuing fight resulted in a classic swap of a huge territory for huge thickness. Apart from allowing the deep counter-invasion at White 80, this thickness worked in more subtle, long-distance ways than usual thickness (there just isn't any room for running fights, really), the main upshot of which was that almost the whole of the upper left quadrant turned into virgin White territory. The result was a jigo (no komi), which (combined with a lack of apparent mistakes - and each side had 9 hours) suggests the early play was even. A small boundary play mistake late on by White may have affected the outcome.



This post by John Fairbairn was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, sorin
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Post #11 Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:06 am 
Tengen

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I lost a 10 second blitz game at BIBA taking 6 stones against one of the teachers, a very strong amateur 7d. I wish I could have recorded it as it was a really interesting style which iirc used this 2-space high approach. He made a lot of loosely connected jumps (e.g. large knight's moves) and went for large scale separations and running groups.


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Post #12 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:48 am 
Gosei
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BlindGroup wrote:
I don't have much experience playing this side of heavily handicapped games, but I was once told that an advantage of this move is that for some players it can elicit a greedy 'c'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . W . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

So I've been playing this approach quite a bit in handicap games recently, and noticed that 'c' is by far the most common response, with the followup:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . O 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . 2 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

After which B plays a move like 'a' or 'b'. Personally, I find this rather unsatisfying as White since it makes me pretty heavy, but I also feel like :w2: and :w4: are forced (either that, or just tenuki altogether). What exactly makes :b1: greedy, and is there a better line of play for White?

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 Post subject: Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Post #13 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:59 pm 
Judan

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Hard to be satisfied after move 5 in a 9-stone handicap game, no?

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 Post subject: Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Post #14 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:26 pm 
Gosei
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Kirby wrote:
Hard to be satisfied after move 5 in a 9-stone handicap game, no?
Hah, indeed! Maybe this is why teachers in the past have said I have such a greedy play style...

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 Post subject: Re: Two-space high approach in high handicap games.
Post #15 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:06 pm 
Dies in gote

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Solomon wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Hard to be satisfied after move 5 in a 9-stone handicap game, no?
Hah, indeed! Maybe this is why teachers in the past have said I have such a greedy play style...


Another way to look at it: it is pretty hard to win with white if you give yourself 9 stones handicap :-)

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