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 Post subject: Pincer joseki question
Post #1 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:54 am 
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Consider the following joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b5: is a mistake
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . 1 . .
$$ | . . . X . 6 5 . 4 .
$$ | . . . . . 2 7 . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . a 8 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Supposedly :b5: is a mistake. But if White plays what is supposedly the standard :w8:, all I see is White either giving up sente to play a, or getting split there. :w4: is also cut off.

In a recent game, I played 8 at a, and 20 or 30 moves later wound up with a group that had no way to get two eyes, something I couldn't see coming when I played a.

As you can see I have a lot of difficulty with pincers.


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 Post subject: Re: Pincer joseki question
Post #2 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:14 pm 
Gosei

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Without going into the details of this particular case, this example exemplifies two things that may help you more generally.

One is the heuristic of "five alive": if your string has five or more liberties in a contact fight it can usually live without too many problems. Here, White has the requisite liberties but Black doesn't, so Black is in much more trouble than White.

The other is that meek connection at A is not the only way to play. For example, a knight's move connection is probably sente against the left side. This reminds me of a lesson in a self-defence class. The instructor demonstrated how to parry a right cross. He then asked the class to pair up and practise. We soon heard a plaintive cry from one aggrieved partner: "He hit me with the wrong hand!" But of course in real life a left cross is just as possible. Not to mention a Glasgow kiss!

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 Post subject: Re: Pincer joseki question
Post #3 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:23 pm 
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You didn't say what the question is, but if it is "What should White do after :b9:", you will have to provide :b9:. :)

White looks good to me, but it is a "has an advantage in the local fight" kind of good, not a "has taken more territory" kind of good.

The first thing that my eyes see in that diagram is that Black is already getting short of liberties.

On an intuitive level I feel in my bones that White cannot give up the opportunity to play :w8: by playing a instead. :w8: is 1) hane at the head of two stones, 2) eye-stealing shape with :w4:. It just seems too good to pass up. But that's without doing actual reading, which sometimes gets me into trouble. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Pincer joseki question
Post #4 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:23 pm 
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I figured Black would cross-cut at a. The stone at :w4: is already cut off, and I didn't want to get three more stones cut off.

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 Post subject: Re: Pincer joseki question
Post #5 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:29 pm 
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I dunno, it's a fight. You're cut, but Black is cut too. I think your stones are stronger. At some point you just have to have faith that your advantage will tell.

Here's one thought:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm9
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . O . X 3 .
$$ | . . . X . O X . O .
$$ | . . . 8 . O X . . .
$$ | . . . X 4 1 O 2 . .
$$ | . . . . 6 5 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


:w10: is there so that :w14: threatens a ladder. Now you have two groups and Black has three or four, all of which look pretty weak.


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 Post subject: Re: Pincer joseki question
Post #6 Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:28 am 
Tengen

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I think this is a good example of Fedya's pessimism: you focus on the weakness of your own stones and overlook that of your opponent's (the reverse situation is perhaps more common). I could well imagine Fedya posting this position as black after White's hane for 8 bemoaning his awful shape and what on earth should he do to salvage this mess! ("If I hane to right then white can cut and that looks hopeless. I could make empty triangle to avoid cut but everyone always tells me that is a bad shape you shouldn't make. And if I cut that looks no good as white just ataris out and my corner is going to get surrounded and probably die").

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