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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #41 Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:29 am 
Judan

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Schachus wrote:
Shenoute wrote:
Here is a very short game (111 moves) won today by XIUZHI(P).

that would be Park Jungwhan, right?(I found this name from the senseis page about the masters games, where he he also played a couple of games)

Yes, according to the spreadsheet of known pro's Tygem usernames I posted just above.


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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #42 Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:01 am 
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Zen's second loss of today. Replaying it, it feels like a convincing win by abc2080 (Kim Junghyun 5p according to the list posted above by Uberdude). I like the way black handled the top left corner after 132.



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DEEPZEN(B)-abc2080(P)_20171025 (Tygem).sgf [1.6 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #43 Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:23 am 
Judan

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Shenoute, mostly you've focused on Zen's losses, but who are the Tygem wins against? Does it beat top 20 pros more than it loses to them? Has it beaten XIUZHI (Park)?

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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #44 Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:59 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Shenoute, mostly you've focused on Zen's losses, but who are the Tygem wins against? Does it beat top 20 pros more than it loses to them? Has it beaten XIUZHI (Park)?

Ah, you're right, sorry. I guess focusing on its losses is my way to deal with AI supremacy :D More seriously, it is mainly because Zen plays around 30 games per day on Tygem and I can't look at them all so I tend to pick the ones that stand out (losses and short games mainly).

It is hard to do any statistics with the Tygem client (with the English version at least) but I had a look and my impression is that no player has more wins than losses againt Zen (at least not those who have played it more than once). To flesh it out a bit, here is a list of Zen's victorious opponents since he came back on the 20th:

abc2080 (25th)
XIUZHI (25th)
DTou (24th)
Burn (24th)
Alex (24th)
Mollayo (23rd)
KeA (23rd)
5353 (23rd)
CHAH (23rd, on 2 stones)
tmch (22nd)
TuTu (21st)

None of these opponents has won twice against Zen, although some play every day against him (Hopeldo, Mollayo, Burn, Alex, aisdir, MilkTea, DTou, JD, all have played Zen several times). For instance XIUZHI played and lost three other games (on the 20th, 21st and 23rd). But since he won his last game I guess we'll see if he is making progress. Generally speaking Zen is losing a bit more now than on the first three days.


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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #45 Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:50 am 
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Let's recap the stats for DeepZenGo-Tygem event this time
Zen v.15.4 (or 15.3)
Time setting: 10 minutes 30 second byoyomi 3 periods
Win/Total
Even games
134/144
H1 games
4/4
H2 games
1/2 (Both games were against the same opponent CHAH(P))
Winrate (combining even games + H1 games) 93%
As of game no.983276834


Last edited by pookpooi on Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #46 Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:08 am 
Judan

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pookpooi wrote:
Win/Lose
Even games
134/144

I presume you mean Win/Played not Win/Lose?

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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #47 Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:20 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
pookpooi wrote:
Win/Lose
Even games
134/144

I presume you mean Win/Played not Win/Lose?

my mind slip for a bit

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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #48 Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:41 am 
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From Deepzen's games played on Tygem today. First a win against XIUZHI (Park Junghwan) in which Park used the same opening with which he scored a win (posted earlier in this thread) but Zen deviated on move 16 (in the previous game he had played at K18). For what it's worth, in this game I find the whole sequence starting with w66 (D7) quite painful for black.


The second one is Zen's only loss on equal terms so far today, against elapsdays, not a name I remember having seen earlier. Elapsedays played another game against Zen later today and lost (edit. I got the name wrong in the sgf file).


Finally, CHAH played again on two stones and won, as he did last time (posted earlier in this thread).


Attachments:
DEEPZEN(B)-XIUZHI(P)_20171026 (Tygem).sgf [1.55 KiB]
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DEEPZEN(B)-elapseday_20171026 (Tygem).sgf [1.41 KiB]
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DEEPZEN(B)-CHAH(P)_20171026 (Tygem).sgf [1.51 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #49 Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:07 am 
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So far DeepZenGo vs Park 4:1
In one game someone said that elapsedays was FineArt, but it's not confirmed.

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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #50 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:38 am 
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johnsmith wrote:
So far DeepZenGo vs Park 4:1
In one game someone said that elapsedays was FineArt, but it's not confirmed.

Hmm, interesting. Elapsedays played again against Deepzen just now but lost, so it's 1W-2L between them. I haven't followed FineArt (it's playing on Foxy no?), how is it doing against pros?

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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #51 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:47 am 
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Shenoute wrote:
Hmm, interesting. Elapsedays played again against Deepzen just now but lost, so it's 1W-2L between them. I haven't followed FineArt (it's playing on Foxy no?), how is it doing against pros?

Since August FineArt force give 2-4 stones handicap and able to maintain >70% winrate several hundreds games, I think they're preparing for handicap event already. I haven't gone through all games but I'd love to see how FineArt deal with mirror go when it gives handicap stones.

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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #52 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:03 am 
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XIUZHI (Park Junghwan) won a second game against Deepzen. As far as I know, he is the only one to have done it so far (that is, since Deepzen came back on October 20th). Here is the game,


Also noteworthy is the win against JinGu. It is a short game (80 moves!) and feels like a master class on attacking (and killing). Black might have been a bit trigger happy when he launched his attack with moves 39 to 45 but White's answer makes for a really nice sequence (46, letting black capture a stone after 67,...).


CHAH played again on two stones but resigned after less than 100 moves. I am of course in no position to criticize pro games nevertheless I can't help but find the beginning of the game not really interesting for b. Having his group on the right side live so small, in gote, while giving w this nice outward looking position...It reminded me of 9-stone handicap games, where w plays his first three moves around one of the b hoshi on the side and threatens to swallow it. The standard advice for b being to get out and not to try and live small locally because w becomes too strong on the outside.


Attachments:
DEEPZEN(B)-XIUZHI(P)_20171027 (Tygem).sgf [1.5 KiB]
Downloaded 630 times
DEEPZEN(B)-JinGu(P)_20171027 (Tygem).sgf [678 Bytes]
Downloaded 630 times
DEEPZEN(B)-CHAH(P)_20171027 (Tygem).sgf [769 Bytes]
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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #53 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:54 am 
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pookpooi wrote:
Shenoute wrote:
Hmm, interesting. Elapsedays played again against Deepzen just now but lost, so it's 1W-2L between them. I haven't followed FineArt (it's playing on Foxy no?), how is it doing against pros?

Since August FineArt force give 2-4 stones handicap and able to maintain >70% winrate several hundreds games, I think they're preparing for handicap event already. I haven't gone through all games but I'd love to see how FineArt deal with mirror go when it gives handicap stones.

I've time so I count latest FineArt games, 100 games in each handicap caterogy (50 from each two accounts) except H4 game I only count 50 because too few games and if I scroll down further it'll be before October which might be an older version of FineArt.
H2 games 78% winrate
H3 games 65% winrate
H4 games 44% winrate (22/50)
And this is not quick time setting magic trick, most games are play on ranging from 20 to 60 minutes main time with 3 to 10 periods of 60 seconds byoyomi, significantly longer than DeepZen on Tygem that has 10 minutes main time with 3 periods of 30 seconds byoyomi.
BTW latest DeepZen winning stats are
(Win/Total)
Even games 175/187
H1 games 5/5
H2 games 2/4
Winrate (Even + H1 games) = 93.75%
Again, if anyone can find mirror go handicap games with FineArt or DeepZen please post here.


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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #54 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:11 am 
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Thanks for the detailed statistics! These are impressive (although on second thought I guess not all these are against pros).

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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #55 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:40 am 
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Thanks all, I'm really enjoying all these games and stats. I'll post when I find out something interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #56 Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:11 am 
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I have a reason to believe that DeepZenGo is trained on Chinese rules, no matter what the ruleset on the internet. On Tygem and WBaduk it plays in Japanese rules, but I think Zen is not aware of that. Reason? We know that Zen always resigns if it is losing. Though, in the game it played today it lost by 0.5 points (Japanese rules), but in Chinese rules it would be 1.25 point win by Zen. This is the game:


Does anyone have more info on this?


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game 2017-10-28.sgf [1.8 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #57 Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:19 am 
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Zen's new bug?

Now let's recap stats on Zen 15.4
Even games (Win/Total)
202/216
H1 games
5/5
H2 games (all against CHAH)
3/5
The last game of this count is against HopeIdo(P) no. 983846287

Then I notice that Zen stop playing for a couple of hours, so I check CGOS and see Zen has new version (15.5) just start to play on there.
After that Zen resume playing in Tygem, so I suspect it's the new version. However, it comes with problem
Its first game was against Circle(P) that result in lose with 0.5 point which is very strange consider that all v15.4 games Zen has only one lose game by point (2.5, against Tutu) and Circle(P) had already played 6 games with Zen and never won. At the end game Circle(P) request count and Zen agree with the count. After this game Zen is offline again.

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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #58 Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:50 am 
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pookpooi wrote:
Zen has new version (15.5)
and Circle(P) had already played 6 games with Zen and never won. At the end game Circle(P) request count and Zen agree with the count.
It's a seki and it's a very close game, too. They agreed that those seki groups were alive. But Chinese rules differ on this compared to Japanese.
I haven't seen all their games, but my guess is that there was no seki.

All Tygem games were 15.4, not 15.3? There was 15.4 on CGOS before it started playing on Tygem?

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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #59 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:45 am 
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Zen's two most recent losses (since the games were still available in the game tab, I didn't have to replay them this time). Jujiang is An Sungjoon 8p.
Zen's four losses on even since the change of version mentioned earlier by pookpoi have all been with him playing black.




Attachments:
Mikado(9D)_DEEPZEN(B)(9D)_201710300631.sgf [1.88 KiB]
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jujiang(P)(9D)_DEEPZEN(B)(9D)_201710300944.sgf [1.92 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: DeepZenGo thread
Post #60 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:24 pm 
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Shenoute wrote:
Here is a very short game (111 moves) won today by XIUZHI(P).


^ lol, move 45...

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