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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #21 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:16 pm 
Gosei

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(But the picture in the previous post is not related to the move of this thread.)

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #22 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:54 am 
Gosei

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A friend asked me for my take on a tewari look at the move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . b a . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After the white 6-3 move black would like to play at a. The answer at b is not the optimal move for black. So in my opinion the tewari heuristic is a further argument in favor of the early inside approach move.

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #23 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:10 am 
Honinbo

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Gomoto wrote:
A friend asked me for my take on a tewari look at the move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . b a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After the white 6-3 move black would like to play at a. The answer at b is not the optimal move for black. So in my opinion the tewari heuristic is a further argument in favor of the early inside approach move.


You must also address this question.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this position would White prefer to play at "a", or at some other point in the top right corner?

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #24 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:22 am 
Gosei

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a is played in some pro games (seldom), even without the hoshi stone.

It is even better with the 4-4 exchange already in place.

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #25 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:40 am 
Honinbo

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Gomoto wrote:
a is played in some pro games (seldom), even without the hoshi stone.

It is even better with the 4-4 exchange already in place.

(Emphasis mine.)

That last statement is what you are trying to prove. And it is you who has the burden of proof, since it is your proposition. The burden is not on other people to refute your play. Proof by assertion is no proof at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #26 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:03 am 
Gosei

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It is not my burden, it is the burden of my opponent :lol:

https://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=226061#p226061


(a little) more serious:
I am quite content if alphago zero and my pro database are asserting a move is fine. I am not trying to proof anything.

Kombilo (3-4 versus 4-4) 85 to 16 good enough for me

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #27 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:57 am 
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Gomoto wrote:
It is not my burden, it is the burden of my opponent :lol:


OC, in a game, if your opponent does not refute your play, so far, so good. OTOH, if that play lowers your win rate, be it ever so slightly, it is your burden.

Quote:
(a little) more serious:
I am quite content if alphago zero and my pro database are asserting a move is fine. I am not trying to proof anything.


But here you are studying fuseki in a go forum, where we are discussing plays, not making them. Not that anybody can prove much about not unreasonable opening plays, but your perception that no one has refuted your play is not an argument in its favor. It is up to you to make that argument.

Quote:
Kombilo (3-4 versus 4-4) 85 to 16 good enough for me


I suppose you mean Black's response to White's 6-3 play. What does Kombilo, and more importantly, you, say about White's 6-3 play? You say that it is rare in pro play. Is it more frequent than 16/101? Or is it much less frequent? If 16/101 is good enough for you, then p < 16/101 should be even better.

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #28 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:57 am 
Gosei

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Bill, I will not enter a meta discussion any further.

On your other questions

There are two seperate points:

I. (comparing two positions, assigning a value to them)
the tewari analysis:
Is the 6-3 move better if the 4-4 answer is already in place and black can not choose to play on the 3-4 point anymore? (I think yes, and you doubted this. I quoted my Kombilo database proportion to support my point of view)

II. (is a move reasonable at all, no comparison, no value assigned)
Is a move reasonable choice at all? (talking about the 6-3 point in this case, here I do not look at a proportion at all, i just look if it ever appears in pro play)

I do not say the 6-3 inside approach is better than any other viable play, I just say it is a reasonable move. The shown variations in this thread, the tewari heuristics (including the alphago evaluation), the lack of refutations and the win rates of several strong go engines (never showing less than rounded 50% winrate in any forced variation) are the foundation for my assertion: The 6-3 inside approach is a reasonable move against the ninrensei fuseki.

In the further discussion I prefer adplay arguments over adhominem arguments :twisted:
If you think my move is bad, just show me and dont critisize my methods ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #29 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:17 am 
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Gomoto wrote:
In the further discussion I prefer adplay arguments over adhominem arguments :twisted:
If you think my move is bad, just show me and dont critisize my methods ;-)


If I criticize your methods, it is because I would like for you to learn something. I am not putting you down. :)

If you propose what is obviously a not unreasonable play in the opening, and then say, "Aha! Nobody has refuted it," what have you learned in your fuseki studies, which is, after all, the title of this thread? If you try a flawed tewari method, and I point that out, you say I am making an ad hominem attack. All I see is that you have formed an opinion and stuck to it. What have you learned?

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #30 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:52 am 
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Gomoto wrote:
There are two seperate points:

I. (comparing two positions, assigning a value to them)
the tewari analysis:
Is the 6-3 move better if the 4-4 answer is already in place and black can not choose to play on the 3-4 point anymore? (I think yes, and you doubted this. I quoted my Kombilo database proportion to support my point of view)


No, I did not question or dispute that. :)

Quote:
II. (is a move reasonable at all, no comparison, no value assigned)
Is a move reasonable choice at all? (talking about the 6-3 point in this case, here I do not look at a proportion at all, i just look if it ever appears in pro play)


Not good enough. It matter to the tewari. In the tewari, if play B in response to play A is not so good, that is one thing. But if the original play A is even worse, then the position with B first and A second is not so good for the player who plays A.

Quote:
I do not say the 6-3 inside approach is better than any other viable play, I just say it is a reasonable move.


You don't just say that it is a reasonable move, you say that it is as good as playing the 4-4 in the open corner.

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #31 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:35 pm 
Gosei

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Ok I understand, you can not agree that the 6-3 inside approach is of the same size as the second empty 4-4 corner.

I do not like to play the same lines over and over again. I strive for creative plays as early as possible. Funny thing is that most (strong) amateurs are very fast at critisizing non orthodox plays or plays they have not seen very often before, while the pros I asked about my early approach moves (I also like to approach the 3-4 point before the empty second corner) are very encouraging when you try something creative in the opening.

I do not insist that 6-3 inside approach is of exactly the same size as the second 4-4 corner. It is just in my opinion a lot more similar in size than most people are aware of. And it is a viable move for an even game in my opinion. But we do not have to agree on this :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #32 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm 
Gosei

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If you call the 6-3 inside approach an obviously not unreasonable play you are at the starting point of my discussion. I am wondering why it has not appeared in pro games more often.

The only game I found in my database is Yang Hui 8d - Liu Xiaoguang 9d (B) 1995
(It is not a ninrensei fuseki, but a diagonal opening, but it is still the same position)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #33 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:22 pm 
Gosei

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One related game where black is playing a similar strategy with a 6-3 approach before the second corner:

Hashimoto 8d (B) - O Meien 9d 1997 (Komi 5.5)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #34 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:40 pm 
Honinbo

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Gomoto wrote:
Funny thing is that most (strong) amateurs are very fast at critisizing non orthodox plays or plays they have not seen very often before,


Pas moi. See, for instance: https://senseis.xmp.net/?ManchurianFuseki and https://senseis.xmp.net/?UpperManchurianFuseki

Quote:
while the pros I asked about my early approach moves (I also like to approach the 3-4 point before the empty second corner) are very encouraging when you try something creative in the opening.


Me, too. :)

That is not the question before us.

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #35 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:45 pm 
Honinbo

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Gomoto wrote:
If you call the 6-3 inside approach an obviously not unreasonable play you are at the starting point of my discussion. I am wondering why it has not appeared in pro games more often.

The only game I found in my database is Yang Hui 8d - Liu Xiaoguang 9d (B) 1995
(It is not a ninrensei fuseki, but a diagonal opening, but it is still the same position)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Consider, if you will, the difference between these boards.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board I
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board II
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #36 Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:36 am 
Oza

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Quote:
Ok I understand, you can not agree that the 6-3 inside approach is of the same size as the second empty 4-4 corner.


Size is not the only factor (yeah, yeah: said the bishop to the actress). Pros make fuseki moves based on several other factors, and end up playing fusekis that don't agree with the basic books (where size is really the only criterion). For example, a move can be played as a probe or as a spoiler (the 6-3 move often falls into those categories). Quite often a move can have a (typically mild) psychological basis ("I'm not going to let him have a parallel fuseki").

This is not unreasonable, to use your phrase, and when these moves are played they often elicit no commentary, so common are they.

But trying to justify such moves by citing basic size theory seems like stepping onto shifting sand. Take the Jacobite victory at the battle of Prestonpans. Cope had size hugely on his side and followed basic theory perfectly - he even guarded against a surprise attack. But the Jacobites still surprised him by sneaking through the marshes with a 6-3 approach and then adding terror psychology - a highland charge through the mist bolstered by the skirl of the bagpipes. But Cope's side won the war. There are only so many times you can play "surprise, surprise" moves. Take the battle of Culloden.


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Post #37 Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:58 am 
Oza

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Here are a couple of commentaries in which both players explains their fuseki moves. I just grabbed the first two to hand. There is nothing special about them but I think they show that pros do not think or talk about fuseki in anything like the same way that basic books do. It is also noteworthy how often Kitani and Murashima thought they had ballsed up in the first 20-few moves even though they had 11 hours each thinking time. NB There are hundreds of such commentaries. References to size are very, very, very, very, very rare.

The game references are to the GoGoD database.

Game 1: 1936-04-01b
W: Kitani Minoru 7d B: Murashima Yoshinori 5d
W: I thought White 10 was slack for White but I chose it for this position.
B: And if I play 11 at A (M3)…?
W: White plays at 11. That seems to make the game fairly expansive (hiroi).
W: For White 16 I also thought about pressing at B (D6) and after Black C (C7), White D (C9), Black E (D7), playing the two-space extension to 17.
B: Playing 17 at D (C9) instead was the honte.
W: 18 was slack. I ought to have punished Black 17 with D (C9). That would make the game fairly expansive, a position where White can expect something.
B: I was somewhat confused about 19. Since playing around 35 (Q11) is a rather good point, that was one idea, but that would be absurd as White can check at A (C10).
W: With 22 I should have jumped to B (P10) and after Black C (P8) quietly play D (N10).
B: 23: pressing down at 24 was proper.




Game 2: 1936-04-01a
W: Onoda Chiyotaro 6d B: Go Seigen 6d
W: The reason I did not block immediately at 14 with 8 was that I wanted to see first how Black would defend here.
B: It is possible to show figthing spirit (kiai) and hane at A (F16) instead of playing 9, but I can’t really let White seal me in with B (P15).
B: 17 Cutting at A (F16) immediately instead of 17 was also an excellent move, I felt.
W: I was at a loss as to how to play 18 and so tried this attachment. Sliding in at C (Q18) instead somehow seems tepid.
B: If 19 pulls back at A (L15), it seems White can continue by pushing up at 19.
B: Connecting at A (L15) instead of playing 23 was a more solid attitude.
W: There are various ways to proceed after 26.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by: Gomoto
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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #38 Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:23 pm 
Gosei

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Thanks for your insightful posts John.

Just for clarification. I am not talking of "size" in the sense of how many points of territory a move is making. I try to develop a feeling in which "category" a move belongs. I want to know which moves are interchangeable at a certain stage or position in the game, because they contribute a similar effort to the goal of winning the game. In this sense i am thinking the 6-3 approach and the play at the second empty corner are of a similar "size".

(I am aware that naturally these two concepts of "size" are related to each other.)

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #39 Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:35 am 
Gosei

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This variation is slightly better for white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Gomoto's Fuseki Studies
Post #40 Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:57 am 
Honinbo

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Gomoto wrote:
This variation is slightly better for white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Please explain. Thanks. :)

Edit: A thought.
:b3: is not so good, I think.

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