Gomoto`s Joseki Studies

Gomoto · #1

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . b 1 a 3 . . , . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

a is Joseki, b is a common mistake (Edit: b is probably not a clear mistake, depending on the whole board situation.)
(Edit 2: b is in fact a mistake, new variation discovered!)

let us discuss why b is a mistake:

Gomoto · #2

Continuation

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 O 3 O . . , . $$ | . . O 2 . 4 b . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

(Edit 2: 4 is not the correct answer! The correct play is b! See the new variation further down in the thread)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . 3 O . . , . $$ | . . O 2 5 4 7 . . . . $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X 9 . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 8 3 O . . , . $$ | . . O 2 . 4 7 . . . . $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Gomoto · #3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 . X X X . . . . . $$ | . . . X O X O 1 . , . $$ | . . O O . O X . . . . $$ | . . . . O . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Bill Spight · #4

Gomoto wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . b 1 a 3 . . , . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

a is Joseki, b is a common mistake

let us discuss why b is a mistake:

"b" is a vulgar play, for sure.

I took a quick look at http://ps.waltheri.net , which gives it a win rate of 0.

Gomoto wrote:

Continuation

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 O 3 O . . , . $$ | . . O 2 . 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 W 3 O . . , . $$ | . . O 2 5 4 7 . . . . $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X 9 . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 8 3 O . . , . $$ | . . O 2 5 4 7 . . . . $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

However, this kind of sequence is not all that unusual.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . a . . . . $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . $$ | . . . X O X O 1 . , . $$ | . . O O . O X . b . . $$ | . . . . O . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Waltheri shows only two pro games with this pattern. (Its database is limited, OC.) White continued at "a" in one, at "b" in the other. A look at both games, however, revealed a problem with Waltheri's win rates, that I have noticed before. Black won both games, not White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . a . . . . $$ | . . . 1 W 3 O . . , . $$ | . . O 2 5 4 7 . . . . $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Perhaps the "problem" is the cut, :b7:

. I looked in the Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary, which does not show the cut, but has one diagram where Black plays "a" instead, which they did not like for Black. Waltheri shows one game with that pattern. Black won it, too.

Maybe the vulgar play is OK.

Edit:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X X 3 . . . . $$ | . 4 . X O X O . 1 , . $$ | . . O O . O X . . . . $$ | . . . . O . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The jump,

, is an attractive play.

Waltheri reports 4 games with this pattern, but one of them looks like a duplicate. Black won 2 games to White's 1.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X X O . . . . $$ | . X . # O X O . O , . $$ | . . O O . O B . . . . $$ | . . . . O . B . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The vulgar push, :bs:

, occurs infrequently, so I don't think that we can call it joseki. If we take this position as emblematic, we can see that there are two problems with Black's position. The first is that Black is confined to the corner. The second, perhaps more serious problem is that the :bc:

stones are floating. OC, as the actual games indicate, that is not a fatal flaw. But I think that the health of the :bc:

stones is a very important factor in whether to play :bs:

or not.

Gomoto · #5

Thanks for your comments, especially on move 10 and 13 in your diagram.

It seems the evaluation of b in the original diagram is already strongly related to the whole board situation.

Sometimes 2 is a possible answer to 1, allthough it is pushing from behind. (Top right corner black for example):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . $$ | . 8 . X O X O 1 3 5 7 $$ | . . O O . O X 2 4 6 . $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Bill Spight · #6

Gomoto wrote:

Thanks for your comments, especially on move 10 and 13 in your diagram.

It seems the evaluation of b in the original diagram is already strongly related to the whole board situation.

Sometimes 2 is a possible answer to 1, allthough it is pushing from behind. (Top right corner black for example):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . $$ | . 8 . X O X O 1 3 5 7 $$ | . . O O . O X 2 4 6 . $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Thanks.

What's you source?

Gomoto · #7

anonymous 9d ;-)

Bill Spight · #8

Gomoto wrote:

anonymous 9d ;-)

Old bridge joke:

Bridge player, having just failed to make his contract: How should I have played that hand?

Bridge player's partner: Under an assumed name.

Gomoto · #9

New Joseki Variation discovered! (With Leela Zero's help while reviewing a game.)

a is not the strongest play for white!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 O 3 O . . , . $$ | . . O 2 . a . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

the proper answer to 3 is this new joseki variation (nice tesuji):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 O 3 O . . , . $$ | . . O 2 . . W . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

All pros in my database (6 games) played the old move at a. The new tesuji in this position seems to be a new way to play and therefore move 1 by black is not only a vulgar play but indeed a mistake.

Bill Spight · **#10**

Very interesting.

But you need more to make the case than just an assertion.

Gomoto · **#11**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . . $$ | . . . X O X O . . , $$ | . . O O . . W . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . $$ | . . . X X 9 5 6 . . $$ | . . . X . X O 0 . , $$ | . . O O 1 3 O . . . $$ | . . . . 2 4 7 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . O . . . $$ | . 4 . X X X X O . . $$ | . . . X . X O O . , $$ | . . O O X X O . . . $$ | . . . . O O X . . . $$ | . . . . . . 1 . 3 . $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Gomoto · **#12**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . . $$ | . . . X O X O . . , $$ | . . O O . . W . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . 2 . . . $$ | . . . X O X O . . , $$ | . . O O . 1 O . . . $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Gomoto · **#13**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . . $$ | . . . X O X O . . , $$ | . . O O . . W . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . $$ | . . . X X 5 1 2 . . $$ | . . . X O X O . . , $$ | . . O O . 3 W . . . $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . $$ | . 8 . 7 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Bill Spight · **#14**

Gomoto wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . . $$ | . . . X O X O . . , $$ | . . O O . . W . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . 2 . . . $$ | . . . X O X O . . , $$ | . . O O . 1 O . . . $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I suppose that these are Leela's suggested lines of play.

As White I would feel a bit nervous with an eyeless wall.

Gomoto wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . . $$ | . . . X O X O . . , $$ | . . O O . . W . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . $$ | . . . X X 9 5 6 . . $$ | . . . X . X O 0 . , $$ | . . O O 1 3 O . . . $$ | . . . . 2 4 7 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . O . . . $$ | . 4 . X X X X O . . $$ | . . . X . X O O . , $$ | . . O O X X O . . . $$ | . . . . O O X . . . $$ | . . . . . . 1 . 3 . $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . 5 7 a . $$ | . . . X . X O . . , $$ | . . O O 1 3 O . . . $$ | . . . . 2 4 6 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

How does Leela feel about :w6:

? I am guessing :b7:

or "a" or tenuki.

Gomoto · **#15**

If this line is not feasible (for example a black stone to the right) ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . 2 . . . $$ | . . . X O X O . . , $$ | . . O O . 1 O . . . $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

... white plays this ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X 5 3 . . . $$ | . . . X O X O . . , $$ | . . O O 4 1 O . . . $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

... or this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X 5 3 . . . $$ | . . . X O X O . . , $$ | . . O O 4 1 O . . . $$ | . . . . . 2 6 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

full board example where extending is not the best answer (1 should be at 2 in a case like this):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O O . 1 . . 4 . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Gomoto · **#16**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . 5 a 7 . $$ | . . . X . X O . . , $$ | . . O O 1 3 O . . . $$ | . . . . 2 4 6 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

a move at 6 is inferior to a play at a, situational move only

Gomoto · **#17**

(Yes, these lines are checked with leela zero and different full board configurations.)

jeromie · **#18**

Very interesting, thanks!

Gomoto`s Joseki Studies

Who is online