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 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Post #21 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:28 am 
Lives in gote
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Gomoto wrote:
(good for black)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 4 2 6 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O 3 8 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 5 0 . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


How about this? Looks good for W to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 4 2 5 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by drmwc was liked by: Gomoto
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 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Post #22 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:46 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 4 2 5 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

good for black

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 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Post #23 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:14 am 
Gosei

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I surrender :clap:

After comparing the outcomes of P6 and Q7, drmwc`s move seems to be at least a valid alternative. Now which of the both alternatives is the better one? I am not able to decide :-)


And I propose a new problem position to make sure the tesuji at P6 is the best move:
(Allthough white is loosing in this new position already :)

Thanks to everybody helping to improve the problem. :tmbup:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . B . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Gomoto was liked by: drmwc
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 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Post #24 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:29 am 
Honinbo

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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Ok. It's always a strong statement to say that there is only one good move.

Anyway, thanks for the problem.

_________________
be immersed


This post by Kirby was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, Gomoto
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 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Post #25 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:57 am 
Lives in gote
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Rank: 4 Dan European
I guess why my move is duff comes to a comparison of:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Duff
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 4 2 5 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


against:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O . O . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O . O X O O . O O X . |
$$ | X . X O . . O . . . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . X X O . O . . . , . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . X . X O . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X . . X . X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X . . . . X . 8 O 9 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's an interesting question.

- Black seems to have more forcing moves in the centre in the second diagram.
- Black's shape in the lower right corner is worse in the second diagram.
- The lower side is more open in the first diagram.

On balance, my preference (for White) is for the first diagram. However, if a strong bot says the second is best, it's more likely to be correct than me.

Thanks for the problem - it was fun.


This post by drmwc was liked by: Gomoto
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 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Post #26 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:24 pm 
Honinbo

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Kirby wrote:
It's always a strong statement to say that there is only one good move.


Worth repeating. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Gomoto
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 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Post #27 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:30 pm 
Gosei

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Only one move ...

... should be the aim of a good problem probably? I failed in my first try ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Are you the first to find the tesuji?
Post #28 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:36 pm 
Gosei

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... if a strong bot says ...

funny thing is the strong bots don`t agree with each other most of the time. Even if they are about the same strength.

-> there is no absolute truth in go :D

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