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 Post subject: Joseki question
Post #1 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:21 am 
Dies in gote

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This joseki emerged in an online game I played today, I looked up the position on sensei's library afterwards given I'd never played it before (although I was aware of the general sequence). At this point the commentary on this position says there is "a peaceful play for black at b and a fight at a" but goes into no more detail on further sequences. In the game my opponent played at b, and despite having played joseki up to this point I have no idea if how I played next was right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 2 O 1 . X 5 . |
$$ . 6 X O X X O O . |
$$ . . a X O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . b 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


For reference this was my follow up, didn't feel fantastic for me in the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O O X . X X . |
$$ . O X O X X O O . |
$$ . . . X O O X . . |
$$ . . 6 4 2 1 X . . |
$$ . . . 5 3 O . . . |
$$ . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Post #2 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:55 am 
Honinbo
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Hi Struttnoddy,

Curiosity questions:

- What was the whole board ?

- You evaluated the top bigger over the :w1: atari sequence ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O X . X . . |
$$ . . X O X X O O . |
$$ . . . X O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

- Any Leela evaluations throughout the moves ( and game ) ?

- One database search:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------|
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 2 O 1 . X 5 . |
$$ . 6 X O X X O O . |
$$ . . a X O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . b 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

(b) occasional move: 9% ( out of 64 (pro) games ).

- After your 2nd diagram, W usually tenuki'd ( 5 out of 6 games ).

- Go Seigen played your shape ( same corner & color :white: ) in 1958, and won. :study:


This post by EdLee was liked by: Struttnoddy
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 Post subject: Re: Joseki question
Post #3 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:42 am 
Dies in gote

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Hiya, thanks for the comments :)

Whole board position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I wasn't keen on the atari variation given black's upper left enclosure

I've never really done much with Leela, perhaps I should!

I did indeed tenuki after the 2nd diagram

The sequence of black pushing through at 'b' is essentially forced for white. Perhaps the compensation for black's thickness along the right side was just getting sente?

Good to know I'm in some good company as well ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Joseki question
Post #4 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:43 pm 
Judan

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- Outward turn in that joseki should be okay for white if it's ruining Black potential on top side, as here.
- white needs ladder, as here.
- white no choice after b push through. So you have to accept it.
- I can understand feeling shortchanged with this result locally, I do too sometimes. Black has much more territory. White is super strong but the turn/push below 6 is still big. Sometimes worth paying immediately.
- If b plays on top side you ignore or invade to use thickness.
- If white plays go a long way e.g. attach on outside of shimari.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseki question
Post #5 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:46 pm 
Honinbo

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Struttnoddy wrote:
This joseki emerged in an online game I played today, I looked up the position on sensei's library afterwards given I'd never played it before (although I was aware of the general sequence). At this point the commentary on this position says there is "a peaceful play for black at b and a fight at a" but goes into no more detail on further sequences. In the game my opponent played at b, and despite having played joseki up to this point I have no idea if how I played next was right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 2 O 1 . X 5 . |
$$ . 6 X O X X O O . |
$$ . . a X O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . b 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


For reference this was my follow up, didn't feel fantastic for me in the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O O X . X X . |
$$ . O X O X X O O . |
$$ . . . X O O X . . |
$$ . . 6 4 2 1 X . . |
$$ . . . 5 3 O . . . |
$$ . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Yeah, Black is plainly ahead in territory and a little bit in influence. But Black has played one more stone than White. Since correct komi is 7 or so, Black should be ahead in the early play by around 14 pts. White may actually have the edge, on an empty board. :)

And considering that, in the actual game, White spoils Black's sphere of influence on the top side, maybe Black should not have played the one space low pincer.

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseki question
Post #6 Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:13 am 
Dies in gote

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Having looked at it more and considered all your comments I think I'm happier with the outcome than I was during the game :)

Certainly having disrupted the top and gained sente I don't think I could be too unhappy, even if black did better locally. In addition black's push through to get thickness on the right eliminates any aji in connecting the stones at 'a'.

Cheers again for all the thoughts :)

Edit: I looked through this position with Leela and by the end of my second diagram it gives white ~60% win percentage. The push at 'b' for black drops black's win rate by almost 10%... the turn for white is a few percent worse than the atari sequence suggested by Ed!

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Post #7 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:08 am 
Honinbo
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Quote:
the turn for white is a few percent worse than the atari sequence
Do you mean for your board, Leela likes the W atari better than the W turn, for W ? :study: Would be nice to see AGZ's numbers, too.
( Probably for humans, LZ's and AGZ's few percents are a wash. :) )

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 Post subject: Re: Joseki question
Post #8 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:47 am 
Honinbo

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Struttnoddy wrote:
Edit: I looked through this position with Leela and by the end of my second diagram it gives white ~60% win percentage. The push at 'b' for black drops black's win rate by almost 10%... the turn for white is a few percent worse than the atari sequence suggested by Ed!


Interesting. :) The atari is fairly standard in the modern form of this joseki, the turn is special, but playable, depending on ko, as Uberdude says. I am surprised that Leela has a definite preference for the atari, as the Black thickness on the side works well with the Black enclosure in the adjacent corner.

My impression is that during the 18th century a lot of joseki seemed to gel, so that corner play in 1700 is freer than in 1800. But this joseki, IIRC, seems to be an exception. By this joseki I mean high approach, low pincer, 3-3 attachment, inside hane. It seems as though the top players were not all that sure how to evaluate the different variations.

Edit: Here is an atari that Waltheri says has good stats, but it has only a few instances in its database. What does Leela think?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . X X O . . |
$$ . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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Post #9 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:15 am 
Dies in gote

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EdLee wrote:
Quote:
the turn for white is a few percent worse than the atari sequence
Do you mean for your board, Leela likes the W atari better than the W turn, for W ? :study: Would be nice to see AGZ's numbers, too.
( Probably for humans, LZ's and AGZ's few percents are a wash. :) )


Yes, the atari is better than the turn for white but not by more that 2/3% or so on this board. Interesting given the black enclosure

Bill Spight wrote:
Here is an atari that Waltheri says has good stats, but it has only a few instances in its database. What does Leela think?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . X X O . . |
$$ . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Leela doesn't even consider this move, it might be playable but I can't see an awful lot of promising continuations. The wedge doesn't really seem to work any more and supposedly it's the only reason white can play the 3-3 attachment in the first place

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 9 . . 0 . . |
$$ . X 7 4 2 1 . . |
$$ . . 8 O 3 X 6 . |
$$ . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Post #10 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:32 am 
Honinbo

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Struttnoddy wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Here is an atari that Waltheri says has good stats, but it has only a few instances in its database. What does Leela think?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . X X O . . |
$$ . . . . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Leela doesn't even consider this move, it might be playable but I can't see an awful lot of promising continuations. The wedge doesn't really seem to work any more and supposedly it's the only reason white can play the 3-3 attachment in the first place

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 9 . . 0 . . |
$$ . X 7 4 2 1 . . |
$$ . . 8 O 3 X 6 . |
$$ . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


See how Leela evaluates this position after :w18:. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X 3 X X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 O O X 2 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseki question
Post #11 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:48 am 
Dies in gote

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If white wedges immediately Leela black at a ~45% win rate, whereas the white atari puts black at ~50%. After your diagram it's still about 50/50 :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 44% win for black
$$ ----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . X 5 4 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 50% win for black
$$ ----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . 4 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 51% win for black
$$ ----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 9 . . 0 . . |
$$ . X 7 4 2 1 . . |
$$ . . 8 O 3 X 6 . |
$$ . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Joseki question
Post #12 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:55 am 
Judan

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The inside hane by Black after White's 3-3 attachment isn't played much these days. I recall recently reading that joseki is now considered better for white locally with some tewari argument (Edit: found it on Viktor Lin's blog relaying weiqi tv video) so it's only ok for Black if he can make particularly effective use of the thickness (facing along the top side here).


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Bill Spight
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