Especially if white tries this stubborn resistance
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| Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15568 |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
A play at 1 is the strongest move. But you need to know the follow up moves. |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
Especially if white tries this stubborn resistance |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
It is very important to play 5 and dont chicken out! |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
forced continuation: |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
This is where the fun begins ... |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
Variation 1: (the top of the pro variations, but questionable) |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
Variation 1a: Move 8 is probably stronger than a move at a. Additional Info: Lee Taehyun 7p - Kim Junghyun 6p, B+Resign (Komi 6.5) year 2017 Korean League, round 5, 2017-07-14 |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
Possible continuation 1a: |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
Variation 1b: Move 1 is not working. This is good for black. (The move at 2 is probably stronger than the play at a.) Additional Info: Tang Weixing 9p - Mi Yuting 9p, B+Resign (Komi 7.5) 19th Chinese League A, round 19, 2017-10-08 |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
More to come ... |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
Gomoto wrote: black 8 was pass? P.S. Sometimes my opponents cut instead of empty triangle block in var 1. I've nor seen that in pro games, mistake? how to continue? This is a very interesting new joseki! |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
Uberdude wrote: black 8 was pass? I'm pretty sure. 
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
@Uberdude: The cut is not a good option for white. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
I would not expect white to make that centre push as it loses the 2nd line cut emergency escape route for the corner. If following happens then white is saying a and b miai; let's assume for now giving black a stone at c doesn't make ladder at d work. Then black saves his stones and encourages white to cut because it damages the outside. Extend of 12 is a tesuji aiming for miai of ladder above or net below, but white can avoid both with pushing to take liberty (we still assume ladder is good for white if white chose to cut). I suppose black plays this yummy squeeze and white's shape sucks. Where next? a/b/c are some ideas. Maybe white should have pushed at d before that self-damaging second line cut to make sure the e weakness is serious. This is probably good for black, but as black I could probably lose against Ilya Shikshin from here seeing as groups are cut and nothing white is dead and black does have some weaknesses too. |
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
balance of power 
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| Author: | drmwc [ Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
Interesting. Is the move below now considered to be slack? I learned it as a joseki many years ago. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
drmwc wrote: Interesting. Is the move below now considered to be slack? I learned it as a joseki many years ago. Me, too. The winners rewrite history, eh?
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| Author: | Gomoto [ Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
Who am I to tell you it is slack? But I would not play it myself anymore 
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
drmwc wrote: Interesting. Is the move below now considered to be slack? I learned it as a joseki many years ago. Yup, at least in China, and Alpha Go supports that view. See #9 at https://viktorlingo.com/2018/02/15/top- ... nt-page-1/. |
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| Author: | sorin [ Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3 |
Uberdude wrote: Yup, at least in China, and Alpha Go supports that view. See #9 at https://viktorlingo.com/2018/02/15/top- ... nt-page-1/. I was very surprised when I saw that LeelaZero also plays the same main fighting variation as AlphaGo does. As if it is the most natural way to play Go. Which reminded me of something John wrote sometime after AlphaGo defeated Lee Sedol, I don't remember the exact quote but along the lines of "maybe there is some simple secret to playing Go well, something that humans just overlooked so far". I somehow accepted the sad fact that humans overlooked the simple 3x3 invasion under 4x4 as being a strong move early in the game, and I explained to myself that two different AIs somehow discovered it very early in their self-play training because it is a relative simple sequence - but how do different AIs discover what looks like an extremely complicated variation like the one in this thread, AND they find it so natural to play, is just beyond me. Looks like magic
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