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Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)
https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16038
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Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)

position inspired by a another thread

(White to play, I changed colors. Dont ask, just count the stones)

Attachments:
bookdiacc.jpg
bookdiacc.jpg [ 242.5 KiB | Viewed 1064 times ]

Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)

I personally started to question all my go literature since strong AI is available.

If the question in this positions is: Where to play strategically, top or bottom?

ELF's answer would be: "Doesn't matter".

Author:  Calvin Clark [ Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)

Interesting. This is what I get when I run ELFV1 on this:

Attachment:
omeien-take2.png
omeien-take2.png [ 1.22 MiB | Viewed 1017 times ]


Here is the analysis of a diagram I posted with the bottom right stones in the wrong place, just for curiosity's sake. (Thanks, explo, for the correction.)

Attachment:
elfv1-omeien.png
elfv1-omeien.png [ 1.24 MiB | Viewed 1032 times ]


Which weights/parameters are you using?

Author:  explo [ Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)

Calvin, you don't have the stones in the lower right corner in the same position as gomoto.

Author:  Calvin Clark [ Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)

It is interesting that the AI is already considering contact plays in this position. I am curious about how ELFv1 (or really any engine) would evaluate the contact plays marked below. I include both angle plays and attachments. Remembering that white is already considered to be ahead in this position and it's white's move, some (but not all) of these plays are bad enough to put white behind. Some are actually okay. But which ones? Think about it a bit. I will post what I find later. And before anyone says, "Come on, Calvin, the 2-2 point is obviously bad!" remember what we've learned in the past few years. Keep an open mind. :lol:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Contact plays
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c c c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c X c . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . c c c c . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . c X c . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . c c c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c c c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c X c . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . c c c . . . . . . . c c c . . . . |
$$ | . c c c . . . . . , . . c X c , . . . |
$$ | . c X c . . . . . . . . c c c . O . . |
$$ | . c c c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(edited to match Gomoto's diagram).

Author:  Uberdude [ Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)

I believe Tami omitted a black stone from the book diagram at f4, see that thread if/when she confirms. Then the lower side being the place to play is "no s***, sherlock" for me and the bots agree.

(apparently this forum has some auto-replace censoring that spoiled my sibilance!)

Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)

(Just derailing the thread)

LOL

O Meien also talks about finite and infinite go. I remember ...

Author:  Calvin Clark [ Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)

explo wrote:
Calvin, you don't have the stones in the lower right corner in the same position as gomoto.


Well, we see how AI has polluted me already, then. I'll leave that up and re-do. :lol: Thanks.

Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)

And now a somewhat different position ;-)

black to play

ELF's statement:

Attachments:
bookdia2.jpg
bookdia2.jpg [ 162.1 KiB | Viewed 1012 times ]

Author:  Calvin Clark [ Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)

From Zone Press Park, I think O Meien mostly sees huge sector lines like this. A lot of the book is more understandable that way. Except for the food part. It doesn't help there.

Attachment:
sectors-omeien.png
sectors-omeien.png [ 875.32 KiB | Viewed 998 times ]

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