It is currently Mon Mar 18, 2024 7:13 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #1 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:15 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?

Consider the large keima.


Attachment:
submarine.jpg
submarine.jpg [ 156.39 KiB | Viewed 6722 times ]


possible continuation:

Attachment:
submarine2.jpg
submarine2.jpg [ 161.03 KiB | Viewed 6722 times ]


This post by Gomoto was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, Calvin Clark, Elom
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #2 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:27 am 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Black's submarine seems kind of early to me, and the direction of white's shimari is odd too. The idea of playing from the outside with small knight move when your opponent plays 2-4 in inappropriate situations is something I was aware of before bots, but you probably don't see it so much in pro games (most common probably bump to keep corner) because they don't play the 2-4 in inappropriate situations so much (though probably more than we thought). What about if the submarine is played in more typical positions it is used? Also see similar idea from AG http://www.alphago-games.com/view/event ... 12/move/34.


This post by Uberdude was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, Elom, Gomoto
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #3 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:54 am 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Here's a pro game (black Ke Jie vs Zho Ruiyang) with a more typical usage. http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/74620/. It's from 2016 and has the AlphaGo vs Lee Sedol game 5 opening which was popular back then but now seems so old fashioned! (small shimari, no 3-3 invasions). Black has the distant stone on the left side to support the submarine. Zhou played the classic bump to keep the corner, LZ #157 doesn't think it's so bad, just -1%, but on this position likes to take the outside with the small knight move. LZ thiks the submarine was the worst move of the game so far at -3.6% and preferred knight approach or a move on the top side.
Attachment:
ke jie submarine.PNG
ke jie submarine.PNG [ 698.35 KiB | Viewed 6689 times ]


This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, Gomoto
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #4 Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 12:34 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6082
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
Today, I applied the OP move to win a qualification tournament, thanks! :)


This post by RobertJasiek was liked by 2 people: Charlie, Gomoto
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #5 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:45 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
Sometimes white will try this (suboptimal) move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . W X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #6 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:49 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
Possible continuations:

good for black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . X . 2 . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . O X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 1 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #7 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:54 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
also possible (still not good for white):

(after black connects at a, white can play tenuki)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . 9 . |
$$ . . . . X . 3 . 7 8 . |
$$ . , . . . . O X 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 5 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . a X 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #8 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:58 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
Sometimes black can consider this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ . . a . X . 2 1 . . . |
$$ . , . . . . W X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #9 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:04 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
Situational:

Blacks plays now at a!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 O . . . |
$$ . . . . X . 1 2 . 8 . |
$$ . , . . . 4 W X 6 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 7 . 9 . |
$$ . . . . a . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #10 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:23 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Gomoto wrote:
Situational:

Blacks plays now at a!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 O . . . |
$$ . . . . X . 1 2 . 8 . |
$$ . , . . . 4 W X 6 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 7 . 9 . |
$$ . . . . a . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


What situations?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #11 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:23 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
@Bill: Sometimes this move is best, but the continuation is heavily depending on the surrounding.


Attachments:
submarinev1.jpg
submarinev1.jpg [ 169.88 KiB | Viewed 6433 times ]

This post by Gomoto was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #12 Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:33 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
possible continuations:


Attachments:
submarinev1b.jpg
submarinev1b.jpg [ 173.18 KiB | Viewed 6431 times ]
submarinev1a.jpg
submarinev1a.jpg [ 171.76 KiB | Viewed 6431 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to answer the unsupported 4-2 submarine invasion?
Post #13 Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:36 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
2 times application of the move. (Move 46 and 52)

Poor black did not know I had a look at the 4-2 submarine already :twisted:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group