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How to use an early approach to 3-4
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16075
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Author:  Gomoto [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  How to use an early approach to 3-4

I like to approach 3-4 early. I just wanted to keep book of how I deal with black responses.

(White approaches 3-4 at move 6.)

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Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

Move 6? :o

Move 2, now that's early. :rambo:

Author:  sorin [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

Gomoto wrote:
I like to approach 3-4 early. I just wanted to keep book of how I deal with black responses.
(White approaches 3-4 at move 6.)


In the SGF variations above, how did you decide when tenuki is possible and when it is not?

Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

sorin wrote:
Gomoto wrote:
I like to approach 3-4 early. I just wanted to keep book of how I deal with black responses.
(White approaches 3-4 at move 6.)


In the SGF variations above, how did you decide when tenuki is possible and when it is not?


Moi wrote:
Tenuki is always an option.
;)

Author:  Calvin Clark [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

So you are preparing against a number of local :b7: responses to your approach, but not to black playing a double approach in the bottom left, which is the most common pro response? Your opponent may also tenuki. :lol:

Author:  EdLee [ Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:04 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi Gomoto, Calvin,

For :b7:, what are the bots' top candidates ?

Author:  Gomoto [ Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

Quote:
Calvin Clarke: So you are preparing against a number of local :b7: responses to your approach, but not to black playing a double approach in the bottom left, which is the most common pro response? Your opponent may also tenuki. :lol:


That is the basic idea. The approach to 3-4 is better than defending against the double approach. THe black double approach is what white hopes for:

Attachments:
ap1.jpg
ap1.jpg [ 155.32 KiB | Viewed 2375 times ]

Author:  Gomoto [ Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

Quote:
Sorin: In the SGF variations above, how did you decide when tenuki is possible and when it is not?


I used ELF to evaluate the variations. (Not the first move only).

The sgf variations are just a simplified overview of my preferred choices. (Sometimes there are more options. But I prefer tenuki if possible.)

Author:  Gomoto [ Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

Quote:
Bill: Move 6? :o

Move 2, now that's early. :rambo:


I played like this in the past. But I can not support this style with the current AI opinions. ;-)

Author:  Gomoto [ Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

Quote:
EdLee: Hi Gomoto, Calvin,

For :b7:, what are the bots' top candidates ?


Attachments:
ap2.jpg
ap2.jpg [ 157.49 KiB | Viewed 2371 times ]

Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

Gomoto wrote:
Quote:
Bill: Move 6? :o

Move 2, now that's early. :rambo:


I played like this in the past.


So did humans a few hundred years ago (with no komi). It went out of favor, but even when I was learning go Takagawa mentioned it as a possibility.

Quote:
But I can not support this style with the current AI opinions. ;-)


Go Seigen in his 21st Century Go series recommends the 2 space high approach at move 2, even receiving komi.

Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re:

EdLee wrote:
Hi Gomoto, Calvin,

For :b7:, what are the bots' top candidates ?


According to AlphaGoTeach ( https://alphagoteach.deepmind.com ), AlphaGo has played the keima in the bottom right corner (winrate 45.4% after 10,000,000 simulations) and the one space high pincer there (44.2%). It also mentions 2 human moves, the 2 space high pincer in the bottom right corner (44.8%) and the double approach in the bottom left corner (42.8%). I think we have to rate the double approach as questionable.

Author:  EdLee [ Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi Bill,
Quote:
I think we have to rate the double approach as questionable.
One human interpretation may be that given this position, the bot evaluates that approaching an open 3-4 is more efficient than double-approaching an open 4-4. ( Thus one of many different properties of an open 3-4 v. an open 4-4. )

Author:  Calvin Clark [ Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

Gomoto wrote:
Quote:
EdLee: Hi Gomoto, Calvin,

For :b7:, what are the bots' top candidates ?


LZ 0.15, Elf V1 weights:

Attachment:
elfv1tenukiapproach.png
elfv1tenukiapproach.png [ 702.92 KiB | Viewed 2277 times ]


About the same in terms of move choice. Not sure why Gomoto's is showing black ahead for some responses.

While the double approach in this position may fall of out favor in time, I'll be the first to admit that my opponents frequently beat me despite playing 'questionable' moves and I suspect pros experience this as well. :D

One can't relax just because your opponent gets suckered into the 'inferior' double approach, because without the right response, any advantage is quickly lost.

For example, if white responds with the diagonal, black is back to leading:

Attachment:
SimpleAndSlow.png
SimpleAndSlow.png [ 807.54 KiB | Viewed 2275 times ]


The same happens if white jumps to take a 3-3 now:

Attachment:
AlreadyBehind.png
AlreadyBehind.png [ 791.86 KiB | Viewed 2275 times ]

Author:  Calvin Clark [ Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

For those who are curious, this is the evaluation after the black double approach. Which attachment would you have played? Or would you have played something else?

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TheRightAttach.png
TheRightAttach.png [ 808.72 KiB | Viewed 2274 times ]

Author:  Gomoto [ Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

(I am a ELF v0 fanboy. That is what I used)

Author:  Gomoto [ Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

Quote:
Calvin Clark: One can't relax just because your opponent gets suckered into the 'inferior' double approach, because without the right response, any advantage is quickly lost.


That is for sure. I just like to take the initiative as soon as possible. I like the 3-4 approach because it feels like an active move. I dont want to play blacks game.

Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4

Calvin Clark wrote:
For those who are curious, this is the evaluation after the black double approach. Which attachment would you have played? Or would you have played something else?


AlphaGo plays the press in the bottom right corner (41.1% Black winrate at 10,000,000 simulations). Each jump attachment to one of the double approach stones in the bottom left corner is an alternative, with a Black winrate of 41.6%.

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