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Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16090
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Author:  Gomoto [ Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I dont think tenuki is an option here. One cant play a move like 2. What is your opinion?

Author:  EdLee [ Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:45 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi Gomoto, what does the engine say about the tenuki ? :)

Author:  Gomoto [ Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

Attachment:
tenuki.jpg
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I am very interested in games were you think a tenuki after the 3-3 invasion in the fuseki is the better option. I cant remember one occasion were the tenuki is a good move during the fuseki.

Author:  Gomoto [ Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

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tenuki2.jpg
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Author:  EdLee [ Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:27 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hi Gomoto, thanks. About -10% winrate for :b7:.

Author:  Gomoto [ Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

For starters some more examples were tenuki was a bad idea:

Chinen Kaori 6p - Fujisawa Rina 4p, B+Resign (Komi 6.5)
37th Japanese Female Honinbo, round 3, 2018-07-16


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ten1.jpg
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Author:  Gomoto [ Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

Park Junghwan 9p - Park Yeonghun 9p, W+Resign (Komi 7.5)
3rd Mlily Cup, final 1, 2017-12-30


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ten2.jpg
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ten3.jpg
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Author:  EdLee [ Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:33 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi Gomoto, thanks.

Chinen Kaori 6p (W) - Fujisawa Rina 4p (B+Resign)
Park Junghwan 9p (W+Resign) - Park Yeonghun 9p (B)

Who's B and W in each case ? Oh, it's in the screenshot; thanks.

Author:  sorin [ Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

I don't think playing tenuki after 3x3 invasion is such a big deal - it is as if one started with 3x3, then the opponent played 4x4 later.

The 10% drop in winrate as measured by AI sounds big, but for human players that may not make a lot of difference either.

Author:  Gomoto [ Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

Nobody said an early 4-4 over 3-3 is a good option ;-) (It is not the same by the way)

10% winrate drop is one aspect. You may check the winrates in your pro database also (Not as clear as the 10-15% winrate drop, which is pretty significant in my opinion, but also pointing in the same direction).

Author:  Uberdude [ Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

I rarely saw AlphaGo play tenuki from 3-3 invasion but don't recall if it was in self-play game or teaching tool so could be hard to find. Doesn't mean it's the best move though or LZ/Elf would like it.

Author:  sorin [ Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

Gomoto wrote:
Nobody said an early 4-4 over 3-3 is a good option ;-)


Indeed, it is not the only option.
In the particular game you showed, it looks like the 4x4 player wanted to play a forcing move first, to have their opponent decide, then they would decide in turn which side to block the 3x3 invasion. Of course, they were aware that the opponent may play tenuki.

Gomoto wrote:
10% winrate drop is one aspect. You may check the winrates in your pro database also (Not as clear as the 10-15% winrate drop, which is pretty significant in my opinion, but also pointing in the same direction).


I know what you mean, I agree that a 10% drop is mathematically important. However, I admire the pros that don't blindly follow Leela Zero's percentages, but rather play based on their own ideas (until convinced otherwise).

Author:  Gomoto [ Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

I am not the only one arguing you should not play tenuki:

Cho Hun-heyon: one should never ignore a shoulder hit (Lectures on Go Techniques)



I did learn this rule quite late and improved a lot when I finally stick to it. (Ok it is a reversed shoulder hit in this case ;-) )

Author:  sorin [ Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

Gomoto wrote:
I am not the only one arguing you should not play tenuki:

Cho Hun-heyon: one should never ignore a shoulder hit (Lectures on Go Techniques)

I did learn this rule quite late and improved a lot when I finally stick to it. (Ok it is a reversed shoulder hit in this case ;-) )


It is exactly "proverbs" like the one you quote ("never do...", "always do...") that resulted in blind spots even at the highest levels of human pros.

AlphaGo's greatest achievement in my view is that it helped to break free of misconceptions.

I hope we can avoid proverbs as arguments about why a specific move is better or worse, as I think that would be a step backwards, and it would also make my allergy to proverbs worse :-)

Author:  Gomoto [ Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

Fair enough.

It is my style to never tenuki after the 3-3 invasion ;-)

Author:  Uberdude [ Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

Tenuki being a good response to shoulder hit in a decent chunk of cases is one of the main lessons from Alpha Go (but also it shoulder hits more so maybe the preponderance of these tenukis are in reply to the new shoulder hits). Here's an example from teaching tool analysis of a Master vs pro game, or there's the standard opening of AG Zero as white vs AG Master: e g. http://www.alphago-games.com/view/event ... /6/move/16. The pre-pincer 2 space jump saying "go on, split me and I'll attack your heavy wall or at least settle in its shadow" is now a standard part of the go vocabulary e.g Shin Jinseo yesterday move 39 after a push up http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/77393. Or directly move 46 http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/72995. Master vs pro example http://www.alphago-games.com/view/event ... 10/move/34 . Note that while locally a tenuki these responses are not really a global tenuki as it preemptively reduces the value of the block as followup from the ignored shoulder hit (tenuki to less obviously related part of the board is rarer).

Author:  Gomoto [ Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

ELF agrees on these kind of tenukis:

Attachment:
tena1.jpg
tena1.jpg [ 157.46 KiB | Viewed 2047 times ]

Author:  hyperpape [ Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tenuki after 3-3 invasion? 66 NHK 2nd rd., game 5

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . a O . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


AlphaGo teach slightly prefers b to a here.

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