Life In 19x19 :: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

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Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves? http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16140	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Gomoto [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:34 am ]
Post subject:	Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Let us have a look at this game. I would like know your fellow human opinions on some of the moves. Lee Jihyun (m), 9p - Lee Changho, 9p, B+R (Komi 6.5) year 2018 Korean League, round 14, 2018-10-06

Author:	Gomoto [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Move 13 is the first play I am curious about. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] This move is popular with the pros, but the play at a has a much higher winrate (72% in 30 games > 48% in 152 games) on Waltheri's http://ps.waltheri.net/248432/. Nontheless the play at B12 is also still popular in recent pro games. Elf shows a 14% drop for this move. What do you think about the both options B12 and E14?

Author: Gomoto [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:55 am ]

Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

Move 46 is the next move that puzzles me. This is not the way white should play in this shape in my opinion. Elf shows a 10% loss and recommends a play at a or b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a O X . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . b X . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . X X . X X O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O O . O . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I want to sharpen my opinion on this shape and want to show you what I think right now (which may be flawed):

I (and my pro database) consider these moves from a to f to be good candidate moves for white in relation to the black keima shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . $$ . b a X . . . $$ . d . . f . . $$ . . O . X . . $$ . . . . c . . $$ . . . . . . .[/go]

This is not a valid candidate move! (Not to mention I managed to blunder this one today in one of my games, allthough I should know the keima and its properties already.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . X . . . $$ . . . P . . . $$ . . O . X . . $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . . . . .[/go]

Author:	paK0 [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
No 3-3 invasions and playing gote moves to make shape, what is this, 2015?

Author:	Gomoto [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
This is Lee Changho

Author: Gomoto [ Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:01 pm ]

Post subject: Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?

Some more pro games with the discussed the shape.

(I am aware that this not a pure shape issue but depending on the board position and tactics, but nevertheless in these games the discussed move is questionable too and the play at a probably superior.)

Cho Hanseung, 9p - Park Yeonghun, 9p, W+0.5 (Komi 6.5)
19th Korean Maxim Cup, final 3, 2018-04-23:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O X X X . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O O O O O O , . X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O X . . O Z . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yamada Kimio, 9p - So Kofuku, 9p, W+R (Komi 6.5)
25th Japanese Ryusei, group C, 2016-02-04:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . O . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , Z O . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O . X . O O . | $$ | . . O . . . X X . . . a . . . X X X . | $$ | . . O X O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O . . X O O . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . X X . O O O O O X . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X O X O X X X X X X X . . . | $$ | . . O O O X . . O X O O O X X , . . . | $$ | . O O X O X . . O O X X . O . X . . . | $$ | O X X X X X O . . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Xiao Zhenghao, 9p - Chen Shiyuan, 9p, W+2.5 (Komi 6.5)
11th Taiwan Guoshou, title match #3, 2015-12-01:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . O Z . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . O X . X . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Cho Hunhyun, 9p - Cho Chikun, 9p, W+T (Komi 6.5)
Memorial - 70th anniversary of modern Korean Go, 2015-07-26:

(tongue in cheek example)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . X X . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X O . O , O O . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X . . . O . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O Z . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . a O X . X . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . O . . . X X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O X X O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X X O X O O . O . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O O . . X . X . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X . . . O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	ez4u [ Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
But notice that none of your examples fit the 'pure' shape that you showed above. All have extra stones close by. The general theory may support arm-chair critiques, but is not necessarily relevant when the pros get down and dirty.

Author:	Gomoto [ Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
I just keep the eyes open for this shape in my own games. In all the shown pro games the alternative move is considered better by elf. I am still prone to make this move in a pure keima situation where it is clearly bad in my own games. In the discussed shape (were the move sometimes makes sense) it is at least worthwhile not to play this move too fast and check the alternatives thoroughly first. This is my personal consequence from percieving the significant elf winrate loss in the Lee Changho game.

Author:	Calvin Clark [ Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Gomoto wrote: What do you think about the both options B12 and E14? Both are joseki and it's early enough in the game that I wouldn't think either is really bad off the top of my head. I am nowhere near strong enough to judge this. Maybe ELF is lazy about reading ladders and just avoids variations that depend on it more?

Author:	Elom [ Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Is 10% that big for Elf, though?

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Let us have a look at some pro games and try to explore elfs reasoning. Attachment: strange1.jpg [ 177.56 KiB \| Viewed 10911 times ] Attachment: strange2.jpg [ 176.14 KiB \| Viewed 10911 times ]

Author:	Elom [ Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
At move 46, if white plays at b and black plays an atari at N12, what should white do? Play at M12?

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
... elf's continuations: Attachment: strange3.jpg [ 179.01 KiB \| Viewed 10908 times ] Attachment: strange4.jpg [ 177.6 KiB \| Viewed 10908 times ]

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
And in the Lee Changho game: Attachment: strange5.jpg [ 161.75 KiB \| Viewed 10908 times ] Attachment: strange6.jpg [ 164.78 KiB \| Viewed 10906 times ]

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
elf's continuations Attachment: strange8.jpg [ 166.76 KiB \| Viewed 10905 times ] Attachment: strange7.jpg [ 163.27 KiB \| Viewed 10905 times ]

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
alternative continuations: Attachment: strange9.jpg [ 164.33 KiB \| Viewed 10905 times ] Attachment: strange10.jpg [ 166.33 KiB \| Viewed 10904 times ]

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Elom wrote: Is 10% that big for Elf, though? A less than 3% difference appears to be within Elf's margin of error at a setting of 100K playouts (which does not mean that the most frequent option gets that many playouts). To increase the margin of error to 10% probably means a setting of 10K playouts or fewer.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Gomoto wrote: Let us have a look at some pro games and try to explore elfs reasoning. Attachment: strange1.jpg Attachment: strange2.jpg Please note the Black stone at N-03. That stone supports the Black stone at K-03.

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
Next pro game: Jiang Weijie, 9p - Park Junghwan, 9p, W+R (Komi 7.5) 18th Chinese League A, round 14, 2016-10-08 Attachment: strange11.jpg [ 160.65 KiB \| Viewed 10903 times ] Attachment: strange12.jpg [ 160.92 KiB \| Viewed 10902 times ] Attachment: strange13.jpg [ 162.18 KiB \| Viewed 10900 times ]

Author:	Gomoto [ Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lee Jihyun vs. Lee Changho 2018-10-06 Strange Moves?
one more pro game: Attachment: strange15.jpg [ 167.4 KiB \| Viewed 10896 times ] Attachment: strange14.jpg [ 168.01 KiB \| Viewed 10897 times ]

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