It is currently Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:52 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #1 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:53 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 506
Location: Germany
Liked others: 176
Was liked: 45
Rank: terrible
OGS: paK0, paK0666
Universal go server handle: paK0
See title, I'm looking for some introductory information on how to deal with 3-4 enclosures, specifically large knight and two point jump.

I checked senseis, but the information there is pretty bare overall.

Josekipedia on the other hand is a bit overwhelming, lots of variations with little explanation.

Something ideal would be a lecture or two that go over the most common post alpha-go variations or a book that gives a little introduction to the situation.

Thanks in advance

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #2 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:08 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1121
Location: Earth
Liked others: 361
Was liked: 183
Basic Idea: Usually you should stay away from the large knight move enclosure until quite late in the game (only think about invading or reducing after some moves happened on the outside). But this is by no means an introductory issue. Pros struggle with this question as well.

Some example games:

Shin Jinseo, 9p - Shin Minjun, 9p, W+R (Komi 6.5)
year 2018 Korean League, round 13, 2018-09-30


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . X . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a and b were (much) better options for white


Kono Rin, 9p - Akiyama Jiro, 9p, W+2.5 (Komi 6.5)
66th Japanese NHK Cup, round 2, 2018-09-23


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . a . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


again a and b were better options for white


and one final example:

Chang Suyeong, 9p - Paek Seongho, 9p, B+R (Komi 6.5)
3rd Korea Senior Baduk League, round 14, 2018-09-19


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X , . . . . 1 , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a is the best option, b if you insist playing in the local area

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #3 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:30 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1121
Location: Earth
Liked others: 361
Was liked: 183
You ask about a book or lecture. If you want to learn about tactical situations today I recommend this different approach. Aquire a pro database like Go4Go, search the situation with Kombilo and review with AI. (Books are not up to date and wrong quite often.)

I like tsume go books by the way, even the old ones :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #4 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:16 am 
Judan

Posts: 5946
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 339
Was liked: 3187
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
My approach is different to Gomoto's: attach early and often to large low shimaris. It might not be the best but it's fun!


This post by Uberdude was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, Gomoto, MikeKyle
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #5 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:54 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 506
Location: Germany
Liked others: 176
Was liked: 45
Rank: terrible
OGS: paK0, paK0666
Universal go server handle: paK0
Thanks for your suggestions, however I don't think either way is the right approach for me.

@Gomoto: I usually go over my own games with LZ and get my joseki from what I get there (so at least its relevant to the games I play), but these enclosures don't show up often enough to get a cohesive picture, but they are there often enough that its a pain not knowing how to deal with them. It seems like LZ is highly sensitive to the local and whole board situation, something that I can't replicate, so I'm looking for a handful of ways that are "just ok" but generally applicable.

@Uberdude: I really don't like this "go in and improvise" approach, more often than not it ends badly for me.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #6 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:40 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8596
Liked others: 2514
Was liked: 2962
paK0 wrote:
@Uberdude: I really don't like this "go in and improvise" approach, more often than not it ends badly for me.


IMHO, in go you can't really avoid some degree of jumping into the river to learn how to swim. Fortunately, when you drown, as I have done many, many times, all that dies are stones. :rambo: :blackeye:

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #7 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:19 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8485
Liked others: 1468
Was liked: 1410
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Bill Spight wrote:
paK0 wrote:
@Uberdude: I really don't like this "go in and improvise" approach, more often than not it ends badly for me.


IMHO, in go you can't really avoid some degree of jumping into the river to learn how to swim. Fortunately, when you drown, as I have done many, many times, all that dies are stones. :rambo: :blackeye:


Still try to swim, though. Sometimes I feel like I'm just flailing.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #8 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:55 am 
Judan

Posts: 5946
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 339
Was liked: 3187
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Here's an sgf with some of the most common new josekis from AI around the big shimaris:



Attachments:
big shimari AI joseki.sgf [6.74 KiB]
Downloaded 1180 times

This post by Uberdude was liked by 8 people: Calvin Clark, Drew, Elom, Gomoto, jonsa, Marcel Grünauer, paK0, sorin
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #9 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:56 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 506
Location: Germany
Liked others: 176
Was liked: 45
Rank: terrible
OGS: paK0, paK0666
Universal go server handle: paK0
@Bill: True, but that doesn't mean I can't get some information beforehand

@Uberdude: Thanks, that is amazing.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #10 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:56 am 
Beginner

Posts: 6
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Rank: EGF 3kyu
Universal go server handle: Farodin
Quote:
strong AIs, like Go Seigen, seems to see small shimari as a bit slow and liable to overconcentration


The first time I read this, I started wondering since when we started classifying Go Seigen as a strong AI :lol:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #11 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:19 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 568
Location: Vienna, Austria
Liked others: 249
Was liked: 291
Farodin wrote:
Quote:
strong AIs, like Go Seigen, seems to see small shimari as a bit slow and liable to overconcentration


The first time I read this, I started wondering since when we started classifying Go Seigen as a strong AI :lol:


That would have been "strong AIs like Go Seigen seem to see..."

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #12 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:16 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1121
Location: Earth
Liked others: 361
Was liked: 183
Fuseki example were an early attachment seems reasonable:
(a,b,c,d are viable alternatives for white)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . c . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


example continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 7 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 4 1 X 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X O O O 4 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #13 Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:47 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1121
Location: Earth
Liked others: 361
Was liked: 183
Thanks uberdude, won my tournament game with the attachment today:

Attachment:
large34.jpg
large34.jpg [ 162.89 KiB | Viewed 1637 times ]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Basic ideas for large 3-4 enclosures
Post #14 Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:52 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1121
Location: Earth
Liked others: 361
Was liked: 183
a and b are good options for white in this case:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X b . . . . . , . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group