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Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variation http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16191 |
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Author: | Kirby [ Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:15 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
Gomoto wrote: Kirby wrote: 8% win rate difference from a handful of human games doesn't seem like much evidence to make much of a point about a single move out of hundreds that determined the result of the game. And what is your take on the choice between a and b? What is the rest of the board like? |
Author: | MikeKyle [ Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
On the theoretical discussion: On a vs b: First, I didn't see anyone address this: Kirby wrote: To be clear, if Elf says a> b on an otherwise empty board (maybe it does), I think the evidence is much stronger than some ad hoc stats on a few hundred human games with varying global positions. My default response to a problem is "How can I throw some data at this problem". I've built some automation that uses patern searching and GRP to gather data to answer the question 'When a human pro chooses to play this move in a game, how does AI feel that it effects the win%'. I set it to work on both a and b Method: for a: for b I'd say that the degree to which elf agrees with pro's judgement on a vs b is pretty impressive (Elf is highly opinionated). which suggests to me that elf thinks that pros often make the right choice here and that the game is won or lost elsewhere. |
Author: | Gomoto [ Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
Thanks for taking a closer look. |
Author: | topazg [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
(Actually I'd play "a" in the first diagram over either .. probably, depending on what was below the White stone, but I couldn't move the white stone up a position without clearly separating from the original dia) This reminds me greatly of a chess video of Peter Svidler's when he was criticising why "this thematic way of playing a very common opening is simply bad here because this pawn is on that square and therefore the bishop can't do this" ... I'm paraphrasing and rather too lazy to look up the video (I think it was one of his banter blitzes though as opposed to his dedicated opening repertoire material). Honestly I'll play what feels right in this sort of position, and I suspect that comes down to a comfort zone thing and a "I think I know how to play on from here more than in the other line" sort of thought process. Of the remaining 100 moves I make, at least 80 of them will probably be sub-optimal anyway, so I'd rather play with something I think I understand than go on a % stat that I definitely don't understand the intricacies behind. |
Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
That is a line of thought I am also considering right now. When a is the stronger play in a certain position, even the pros seem to have difficulties to handle the continuations in an efficent way. Another important aspect are the possible/available follow up moves in the near vicinity that are strongly connected to this joseki. I started to review related pro games and will post my thoughts later, but this will take some time. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:41 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
Gomoto wrote: Looking over the games at Waltheri, I have a few observations. 1) The choice of where to play generally occurs late in the opening. Which means that the rest of the board is definitely relevant. 2) Both "a" and "b" are normally sente, with "c" as the usual response to "b" and "b" as the usual response to "a". 3) Tenuki is definitely an option. "a", "b", and tenuki are chosen roughly equally. After tenuki, White seldom plays first locally. |
Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
Cho Chikun 9p - Paek Seongho 9p, W+5.5 (Komi 6.5) 3rd Korea Senior Baduk League, final, round 2, 2018-10-23 Paek Seongho chooses move a (move 1) in this game. In this position move a seems to be better than b because it is possible to aim at this continuation (not the game): In the game Cho tries to resist with H17. (But in this position it would have been probably better to just connect at F18.) |
Author: | Gomoto [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
Cho Hanseung 9p - Choi Cheolhan 9p, W+Resign (Komi 6.5) year 2018 Korean League, round 14, 2018-10-05 In this game Choi went for move b in an early game state. Variation (not the game): Move b seems to be the better option in this game because after move a these follow up moves are not attractive yet (too small and 4 is too good of an answer). |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
dfan wrote: Kirby wrote: 8% win rate difference from a handful of human games doesn't seem like much evidence to make much of a point about a single move out of hundreds that determined the result of the game. I would agree more with this if we were talking about a few dozen games rather than a few hundred. I did some simulations to ask the question "If Black won 153 out of 323 games in total and we break it into groups of 202 and 121 games, what are the chances that he won 90 or fewer games in the group of 202?" and the answer is around 11.6%. So I think that it is fair to say that it is not proof but it is solid evidence. Of course, there are all sorts of things that confound this. Maybe Black usually makes his decision based on a situation elsewhere on the board, and that other situation is really the thing contributing to the difference in win rate. Ceteris are seldom paribus. |
Author: | Kirby [ Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
Gomoto wrote: Cho Hanseung 9p - Choi Cheolhan 9p, W+Resign (Komi 6.5) year 2018 Korean League, round 14, 2018-10-05 In this game Choi went for move b in an early game state. Variation (not the game): Move b seems to be the better option in this game because after move a these follow up moves are not attractive yet (too small and 4 is too good of an answer). I like these kinds of posts. We have several examples and can discuss various *reasoning* for various alternatives. The OP seemed more like a very generalized statement that said "win rate is X%, therefore b > a". I fight back against this kind of generalization, even if it's true in many cases. Going over reasoning and seeing the limits of when "b > a", when "a > b", when "a ~= b", etc., is interesting and valuable. The win rate of a few hundred pro games is also interesting in some regard, but it's kind of like a novel piece of knowledge than any sort of true understanding. |
Author: | Gomoto [ Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
This is a related nice diagonal fuseki idea for black: (Most people play move a. I like the black position. Just won my first game with this fuseki. A nice alternative to my standard fusekis.) |
Author: | Gomoto [ Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:08 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
Let us have a look at this nobi variation: This is the only answer in my opinion. (E18 is misconsidered as joseki too, after white E18 a move by black at 2 is just too good): The nobi variation is a good option for white if black attaches early like in this game: Song Hyeryung 2p - Lee Seongjae 9p, B+Resign (Komi 6.5) 12th Korean GG Auction Cup, game 12, 2018-08-20 (in the game white played the standard move at a instead) continuation (not the game): (good options for white are now a,b,c) |
Author: | Gomoto [ Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
And one more variation: here I prefer this continuation: |
Author: | Gomoto [ Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Joseki 4-4, low approach, low extension, contact variati |
I like to post these variations to keep track of my standard candidate moves and candidate variations. (As always I am happy if you show me positions were another variation is the better option.) |
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