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 Post subject: Question About a Recent Move
Post #1 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:54 am 
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After white's marked stone, I played the following sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . X . O O O O O . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . , . . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . X X . X O O O |
$$ | X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . 7 . . . . . X . W . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . X . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I see this large knights move quite often. I realize that the joseki move is black 1 at 6. However, in this case, the joseki move didn't seem right to me. With the wall on top, the outside seemed more valuable than the corner. Plus there seem to be two other advantages -- First, the marked black stone allows me to develop a full center facing wall on the right side and the stone at O3 (usually at N3) limits black's profit from white 6.

What am I missing? Lizzie evaluates black's win percentage at 80% after both before 1 and after 7. However, this is largely due to white 6. Were white to push at R8 for 6 (honestly, as I expected) and black responded as usual with the double hane sequence, white would gain about 10 percentage points. (Lizzie slightly prefers ramming the marked white stone to the joseki move of 1 at 6, but it's a difference of less than one percent.) Why isn't the resulting wall worth less than the side and corner territory?

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 Post subject: Re: Question About a Recent Move
Post #2 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:51 pm 
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What does Lizzie say about :b1: at :w4: or :b1: at R4? While I see the moyo in the game sequence, in my experience the AIs have little respect for them and helping white connect the large knight's slide may be too much especially with the marked black stone in place, but I'm not sure.


This post by Calvin Clark was liked by: BlindGroup
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 Post subject: Re: Question About a Recent Move
Post #3 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:51 pm 
Tengen
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Move 7 in the original post looks like it was played while looking at a joseki book and not the board.
How about this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . X . O O O O O . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . , . . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . X X . X O O O |
$$ | X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O , . . 7 . . . . . . . . X . W . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . X . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: BlindGroup
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 Post subject: Re: Question About a Recent Move
Post #4 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:00 pm 
Gosei

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I dont like josekipedia on this position (1 at R3). 1 at R4 is usually much better than R3.

[Edit: After a deeper look I revise my opinion, it depends as always ;-)]


Last edited by Gomoto on Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This post by Gomoto was liked by: BlindGroup
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 Post subject: Re: Question About a Recent Move
Post #5 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:07 pm 
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Calvin Clark wrote:
What does Lizzie say about :b1: at :w4: or :b1: at R4?


Gomoto wrote:
I dont like josekipedia on this position (1 at R3). 1 at R4 is usually much better than R3.


After 5,000 playouts, R4 = 78.6% and S6 = 78.3%, but both are very slightly better than R3 = 77.6%.

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 Post subject: Re: Question About a Recent Move
Post #6 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:35 pm 
Tengen
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . X . O O O O O . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . , . . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . X X . X O O O |
$$ | X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O , . . 7 . . . . . . . . X . W . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . X . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


G4 is so strong, I might have played this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . X . O O O O O . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . , . . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . X X . X O O O |
$$ | X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Question About a Recent Move
Post #7 Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:36 am 
Judan

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BlindGroup, I think you need to think more about the weakness of groups: when white slide you should be first thinking "Is this white group strong?" Answer: no. So the general idea should not be to help white to live (which is what your pushy moves from the centre do), but to keep it weak and attack. The cut at s6 leaps out to me, and is probably even better than it deserves against the level of opponents you play as they probably won't find the fancy dodges for white like q3 attachment, but just get cut and make 1 dead group and 1 weak group and then you are doing great.

And look what I just saw on Fox (and yes Lee Changho played the attachment inside corner next):


Attachments:
slidey cut.PNG
slidey cut.PNG [ 516 KiB | Viewed 825 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Question About a Recent Move
Post #8 Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:28 am 
Dies with sente
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Curiously I was watching this game being filmed.

Lee Changho looked about as surprised by this move as I have seen him look (ie. Not at all)

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