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 Post subject: Next generation Go?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:13 pm 
Tengen
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So, I thought I'd play a game against LZ, and of course I won handily. After about 40 moves my lead was so crushing that I decided to stop playing and analyse where it had already gone wrong. Oh, no, wait, _I_ was Black.... in seriousness, I read Sol's post about all sorts of craziness on 9x9 (on the GoQuest thread) that flies in the face of 19x19 conventions. I'm actually beginning to think that there's a lot to be said for flying in the face of 19x19 conventions on 19x19. This is the start of the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 7 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


?????? When I was learning go, that :w8: and :w10: would have received "that look" from the people patiently trying to get me to understand big board thinking, yet to LZ it seems simply the forcing nature has immense value. I wonder if those will end up being "overplay" when LZ version 213.2 is widely acknowledged as the best Go engine ever, but in the meantime this approach feels really spectacular. I could post more of this game if people want, but I did end up feeling embarrassingly behind after another 30 or so moves. Obviously knowing how to make use of the moves is the key behind the whole thing, but I would never have considered making the 8-9 trade, and I wouldn't have considered playing in the lower right starting with 10

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 Post subject: Re: Next generation Go?
Post #2 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:03 am 
Dies in gote

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The :w8: :b9: trade and the sequence after :w10: have already become part of the standard repertoire of pro players.
Black can try to resist of course, and that is when these sequences become really interesting
The future is now, I guess :D

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 Post subject: Re: Next generation Go?
Post #3 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:03 pm 
Tengen
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Why not play :b11: like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 5 3 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The natural play leads to an avalanche in which the black stone at R9 is an impediment to white's development.


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: topazg
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 Post subject: Re: Next generation Go?
Post #4 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:05 pm 
Tengen
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Why not play :b11: like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 5 3 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The natural play leads to an avalanche in which the black stone at R9 is an impediment to white's development.


I don't think White plays :w12: there, but yeah, that was a better :b11: than my rather rushed choice

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 Post subject: Re: Next generation Go?
Post #5 Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:59 am 
Judan

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topazg, yes things must look pretty strange coming back to go after a few years out! Here's a nice tewari for the lower right sequence where you can see it's like it started as a black 3-4 facing the wrong way and black made an odd (in old theory, not so unusual these days) kick and somewhat overconcentrated side. 1 is bad direction with Chinese stone already there as white gets to approach on lower side developing fertile ground with lower left corner. 3 is definitely bad in old theory, and probably still bad in new, helping white more than black. 4 good, 5 a tad slow (prefer knight), 6 for 7 is a bad exchange for white losing liberties and also some endgame loss in corner, 8 for 9 is probably good exchange for white, 10 for square likewise (black hane better?), then extend to white square looks good with the Chinese stone ending up inefficient.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . 4 6 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Also this idea featured in one of the AlphaGo games for WeiqiTV, Daniel Hu translated the detailed comments from Fan Hui with Chinese pros here.


This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: Joaz Banbeck, topazg
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