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 Post subject: Re: shape move
Post #41 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:32 pm 
Bill Spight wrote:
The light dawns.
Caution Error Warning Danger! Blinky Bill is on the loose again, throwing banana skins and red herrings around. Pay no attention to him, children, and do not eat any of the sweets he gives you.

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 Post subject: Re: shape move
Post #42 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:08 pm 
jlt wrote:
Here is what LZ157 thinks
please can you attach the .sgf you made? i don't trust myself to make a sound one any more!. you know, it might have been a real game, although i can't guess whether you got the lastmove right (i know i didn't!); it seems an odd thing for white to play yose so early on - maybe white is John??
For this debugged position, there are now 3 opinions for me to work with (Author, Big Laizy and little Laizy), which should keep me out of mischief for quite a while.

Thank you to all those that offerred moves on my stuff-up; in my analysis-synthesis of the good version i will try to include suggestions from the Lazies that are close to what you said, so your efforts won't have been wasted.

ttfn

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 Post subject: Re: shape move
Post #43 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:39 am 
Lives in gote
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jaca wrote:
please can you attach the .sgf you made?


I am 99.99% sure I got the move order wrong.



Attachments:
shape.sgf [455 Bytes]
Downloaded 15 times
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 Post subject: Re: shape move
Post #44 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:00 pm 
Honinbo

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Apparently jaca is hors de combat at the moment. So let me show an interesting plan of play by Deep Leela (Leela 11).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm69 Flow of the stones
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . O . X . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . X . X O . O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 9 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X . . . , . . . . . 8 O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X X X . O . O . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 O O . . O X 5 O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


DL started with :b69: a move that appealed to me, although I am not at all sure that I would have played it in an actual game. :w70: - :b73: makes Black heavier before living, although at some cost to the strength of the White group on the bottom side.

:b75: is a standard attack. :w76: is an enterprising response, which I suppose DL predicted. This exchange makes :b77: more urgent, for good choshi. Then :w78: protects the weak group on the top side. The whole sequence makes a nice counterclockwise flow of the stones. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 The attack continues
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . O . X . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . X . X O . O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . 7 . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X . . . , . . . 4 6 O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X X X . O . O . X . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b79: goes back to attack the group on the right side, and then :b85: attacks both White groups on a large scale.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm86 Topping the tree
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . O . X . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . X . X O . O . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . 4 . X . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X . . . , . . . O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . 1 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X X X . O . O . X . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w86: bolsters the heavy White group on the right side. Then :b87: is a very nice play combining attack and defense. After :w88:, :b89: tops the tree.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm90 Key point
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . 4 6 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . O 5 X 1 X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . X . X O . O 3 O . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X O . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X . X . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O X . . . , . . . O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X X X . O . O . X . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w90: - :b95: bolsters his group in sente. And then :w96: reaches out for more room. :b97: is a key point, giving White difficulties.

The original position is given as a shape problem, I suppose by playing against the White group on the top side. But White has four, count'em, four weak groups. How to coordinate the attack on all of them is not obvious. :b77: is a move you might want to make, as it combines moyo building with attack, but if you start with it, it feels kind of soft. DL's plan makes it a sharp play. :)

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This post by Bill Spight was liked by 3 people: Aidoneus, lightvector, marvin
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