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 Post subject: direction of play exercise
Post #1 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:45 am 
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H4 game between Ian Butler (Spoonsy) and Knotwilg (Artevelde)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 84 to 88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . X . O X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . X . . . . O , O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . . . O . X . X . . . |
$$ | X O . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X X X . . . , . 3 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . 2 4 O . . O O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O O O X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black played a slow move at :b1: to which White reduced the Black sphere of influence while attacking the ponnuki with :w2:
This exchange reversed the odds from 70-30 to 30-70, according to Lizzie. Next Black poked and drew back.

Now, how to continue as White?

There are basically 2 directions of play, one of which Lizzie favors. Lizzie also has her eye on a big point which both want to play asap.

Below are 5 proposals for moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 84 to 88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . a . X . O X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . X . . . . O , O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . b . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . . . O . X . X . . . |
$$ | X O . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X . . . . c . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X X X . . . , . 3 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . 2 4 O . . O O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . X e . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O O O X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: direction of play exercise
Post #2 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:40 am 
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My kyu-level thoughts on the position:

White has about 35 solid points, while Black has about 15 points in the lower right corner and 20 points on the bottom left. However Black still has some potential in the center and no big weaknesses, so I still prefer Black. Maybe Lizzie thinks that White is ahead because considers that White has 7.5 komi?

Without looking at your hints, I also considered a, b, c. Moves "b" and "c" continue the idea of attacking the ponnuki, but the attacks don't look very severe. Perhaps start with "b", and then "a" and "c" become miai?

"d" reinforces White's group on the right, but also allows Black to reinforce his bottom group.

I don't understand what "e" achieves, if Black responds with S4. It repairs a weakness in White's position but gives up sente??


This post by jlt was liked by: Knotwilg
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 Post subject: Re: direction of play exercise
Post #3 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:44 am 
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jlt wrote:
My kyu-level thoughts on the position:

White has about 35 solid points, while Black has about 15 points in the lower right corner and 20 points on the bottom left. However Black still has some potential in the center and no big weaknesses, so I still prefer Black. Maybe Lizzie thinks that White is ahead because considers that White has 7.5 komi?


[Whatever Black has, facing the centre, is still open. So I'd rather gauge the size of it and divide it by 2.

Quote:
Without looking at your hints, I also considered a, b, c. Moves "b" and "c" continue the idea of attacking the ponnuki, but the attacks don't look very severe. Perhaps start with "b", and then "a" and "c" become miai?


Yes, that is precisely the good direction of play. I'll come back to that in a general reply



Quote:
I don't understand what "e" achieves, if Black responds with S4. It repairs a weakness in White's position but gives up sente??


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . X . O X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . X . . . . O , O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . . . O . X . X . . . |
$$ | X O . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X X X . . . , . X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . O O O . . O O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ | . b X X X X X X . X . . . . . X 6 2 8 |
$$ | . O O O O X O O O X . . . X . . 5 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The aji in the corner after the :w1: :b2: :w3: exchange is very bad for Black. Almost as bad as having to add another move.
The (bottom) left also has bad aji in the form of a and b.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by: jlt
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 Post subject: Re: direction of play exercise
Post #4 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:28 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . . . X . O X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . X . . . . O , O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . . . O . X . X . . . |
$$ | X O . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X X X . . . , . 3 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . 6 . 2 4 O . . O O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O O O X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: Knotwilg
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 Post subject: Re: direction of play exercise
Post #5 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:12 am 
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Rank: Bel 2d KGS 3d TG 4d
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Tygem: Knotwilg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 84 to 88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . a . X . O X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . X . . . . O , O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . b . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . . . O . X . X . . . |
$$ | X O . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X . . . . c . X . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X X X . . . , . X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . O O O . . O O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . X e . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O O O X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The real choice for me is between b and c in this diagram. And the analysis evolves about two questions

1) can you kill the black group
2) what if you can't kill it

The answer for b) is
1) not really, Black will run out around c
2) I can play at a, and take a big corner

The answer for c) is
1) not really, Black will run out around b
2) I can form some infuence in the centre, which faces Black's strong walls

Obviously, b) is the better choice here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Moves 84 to 88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X X . . . a . X . O X O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . X . . . . O , O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . |
$$ | . X . . X . . . . . . . 6 . X O O . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . . . O . X . X . . . |
$$ | X O . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X . . . 5 1 . X . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X X X . . . 3 2 X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . 4 O O O . . O O . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . X e . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O O O X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Lizzie moreover showed that Black can cut in sente at :b4: before running out and it's White who has a problematic group now.

The proverb says "attack for profit" or "make territory while attacking". In some of the Go books I've read, "profit" could also be influence. As bots continue showing us, influence is particularly useful when forming a sphere of influence, hence potential territory. Mere influence is not so profitable. Over the years, I have built an intuition to cap or otherwise surround the opponent, even if they can still escape, without really caring what profit I would get out of it. With the bots, I'm trying to modify that intuition and attack sideways. The attacking move is less vulnerable that way and more importantly, the profit is likely to be found there.

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 Post subject: Re: direction of play exercise
Post #6 Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:21 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
Over the years, I have built an intuition to cap or otherwise surround the opponent, even if they can still escape, without really caring what profit I would get out of it. With the bots, I'm trying to modify that intuition and attack sideways. The attacking move is less vulnerable that way and more importantly, the profit is likely to be found there.


I have had a similar experience. If the modern pros that I studied, Go Seigen, Takagawa, Sakata, Fujisawa Hideyuki, played a lot of sideways attacks, I did not pick that up. So I was impressed by the sideways attacks by Hattori Inshuku, two centuries ago. It was interesting to find today's top bots making sideways attacks, as well. :)

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