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 Post subject: ideal symmetrical moves and double wing formations
Post #1 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:43 am 
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 Post subject: Re: ideal symmetrical moves and double wing formations
Post #2 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:57 am 
Judan

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I think even a random Japanese pro from the 70s would disagree with your "ideal" double wing, at least the one on the right should be high not low.

Black to play in that half board from waltheri database. Database does have more recent games (hence lots of knight move as #1), but some going back to 40s. Only 1 hit on right side middle, #6 (Wang Lei in 2001).
Attachment:
waltheri double wing.PNG
waltheri double wing.PNG [ 1.07 MiB | Viewed 307 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: ideal symmetrical moves and double wing formations
Post #3 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:19 am 
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For a related discussion using the Elf commentaries on pro games, see viewtopic.php?p=242714#p242714 . :)

I have not finished my discussion of two of the examples. My bad. :(

But, yeah, the sides appear to be less important that we humans have thought.

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 Post subject: Re: ideal symmetrical moves and double wing formations
Post #4 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:36 am 
Oza

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Quote:
and then White reduces with the angle play AI bots like so much


That's the traditional way of seeing it, but it may be time for a review of the terminology. I notice that the Japanese pros seem to avoid using the reduce/erase term when discussing AI games, and instead tend to just say "shoulder hit." The significance is that they are not talking about territory any more. They appear to see much of AI play, including the shoulder hits, rather as attempts to force early overconcentration.

Traditional pro thinking has chided those who settle things early. They prefer to keep the aji and other possibilities open. But AI bots seem to "think" overconcentrating the opponent is worth more than the loss of aji. There's obviously much more to it, but just limiting yourself to thinking about overconcentration seems to elucidate much AI play, and it can't be a bad thing to focus on anyway.

What's a good English term for "forcing overconcentration"? Force feeding?


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 Post subject: Re: ideal symmetrical moves and double wing formations
Post #5 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:30 am 
Honinbo

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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
and then White reduces with the angle play AI bots like so much


That's the traditional way of seeing it, but it may be time for a review of the terminology. I notice that the Japanese pros seem to avoid using the reduce/erase term when discussing AI games, and instead tend to just say "shoulder hit." The significance is that they are not talking about territory any more.


Makes sense. :)

Quote:
They appear to see much of AI play, including the shoulder hits, rather as attempts to force early overconcentration.


Maybe so.

Quote:
Traditional pro thinking has chided those who settle things early. They prefer to keep the aji and other possibilities open. But AI bots seem to "think" overconcentrating the opponent is worth more than the loss of aji. There's obviously much more to it, but just limiting yourself to thinking about overconcentration seems to elucidate much AI play, and it can't be a bad thing to focus on anyway.


Well, it seems to me that often the shoulder hitter actually generates aji, as the shoulder hit stones can be sacrificed.

Quote:
What's a good English term for "forcing overconcentration"? Force feeding?


I dunno. Compressing?

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 Post subject: Re: ideal symmetrical moves and double wing formations
Post #6 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:24 am 
Honinbo

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On the question of reduction, here is a variation by Elf for a castle game between Honinbo Jowa and Hayashi Genbi on Dec. 26, 1828.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 Jowa - Genbi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 3 . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For :b5: Genbi made the enclosure in the bottom right, then Jowa played in the bottom left corner. The pincer joseki in the top right followed, and then Jowa made the high enclosure in the bottom left.

Elf regards :b5: as an 8% error, and gives the following variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 Jowa - Genbi, Elf variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


OC, this is thoroughly modern AI play. With no komi, Elf might have recommended that :w6: approach the bottom left corner instead of making an enclosure, quien sabe? But :b7: is a play worthy of Genjo. :) Yes, it eliminates any aji in the top left corner, but I don't think we can regard that corner as overconcentrated, and :b7: is a reducing play for the top side. Not that White has a moyo there to speak of, but :b7: lowers the temperature of the top side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Jowa - Genbi, Elf variation, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w10: presses against the top right stone, a favorite tactic of the bots. This is a territory vs. influence exchange. I don't think that we can say that Black is overconcentrated. :w14:, OC, avoids the bottom side in favor of the 3-3 invasion of the bottom left. ;)

Edit: BTW, Elf does not like the pincer in the game, :b7: (another 8% loss), preferring instead the 3-3 in the bottom left.

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 Post subject: Re: ideal symmetrical moves and double wing formations
Post #7 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:24 pm 
Oza

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Quote:
It eliminates any aji in the top left corner, but I don't think we can regard that corner as overconcentrated,


I think that's fair, but only because we are dealing with an English term. Overconcentration is not an ideal equivalent of korigatachi. English speakers see overconcentration as a clump of stones packed together - and c'est tout! But the Japanese actually refers more widely to a shape that has become arthritically stiff, or stiff as in stiff shoulders, and which loses the resilience needed to develop properly. The shape you show may not come under the heading of overconcentration but would come under the heading of korigatachi. At least, I think the AI bots have spotted that. They have had the benefit of not being fooled by imprecise English :)


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 Post subject: Re: ideal symmetrical moves and double wing formations
Post #8 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:24 pm 
Judan

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I tend to think of many of these plays as bullying the opponent into inefficiency.

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Post #9 Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:07 pm 
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Quote:
What's a good English term for "forcing overconcentration"?
Somehow these images pop up:
throwing a (monkey) wrench into (a process); (to render it inefficient);
lemon --> curdled milk...
Quote:
a shape that has become <...> stiff as in stiff shoulders,
and which loses the resilience needed to develop properly.
Nice: stiff, rigid ( inflexible ).

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