Life In 19x19 :: taisha fail

i was studying taisha just for kicks, so i try to play this fuseki as black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . 9 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

and i want them to play taisha. but so far, a lot of people avoid it, and they just play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . c . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , 8 6 4 X 1 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 . 7 5 3 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

And it's kind of fizzled out - I wanted to get a complicated fight with taisha, but it just fizzles out. white gets territory, and i have a framework... but not really sure what to do with it. I think about playing 'a', 'b', and 'c'... But not that satisfying. Then I looked at this with LZ, and leela doesn't really like this for black anyway - white was up by like 10 or 15%...

So should I just ditch the 5-3 opening? Or something else? My main goal is to play a fuseki that gets into a complicated game early on. Any specific examples of how to achieve this?

Author:	Uberdude [ Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: taisha fail
Try this 'taisha' Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 7 . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Kirby [ Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: taisha fail
interesting - haven't seen that move before. i'll have to experiment with it.

Author:	gowan [ Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: taisha fail
Kirby wrote: i was studying taisha just for kicks, so i try to play this fuseki as black: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 7 . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . 9 . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ----------------------------------------[/go] and i want them to play taisha. but so far, a lot of people avoid it, and they just play like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . X . O . . c . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . , 8 6 4 X 1 , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . 9 . 7 5 3 . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ----------------------------------------[/go] And it's kind of fizzled out - I wanted to get a complicated fight with taisha, but it just fizzles out. white gets territory, and i have a framework... but not really sure what to do with it. I think about playing 'a', 'b', and 'c'... But not that satisfying. Then I looked at this with LZ, and leela doesn't really like this for black anyway - white was up by like 10 or 15%... So should I just ditch the 5-3 opening? Or something else? My main goal is to play a fuseki that gets into a complicated game early on. Any specific examples of how to achieve this? When you played move 9 in the first diagram you played the taisha. Unfortunately, in Western go the word has morphed into the name of just one variation, the one you want your opponent to play. In fact there are several responses to the taisha that avoid difficulties and the second diagram shows one of them. To see others you can look on Sensei's Library or consult a joseki dictionary such as Ishida's of Takao's. In the end you can't force white to play the way you want. Possibly, if White doesn't know the joseki very well s/he might interpret your invitation as a lure into a trap. If you want to practice this joseki why not set up LZ to play it with you?

Author:	Kirby [ Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: taisha fail
Thanks, my terminology was wrong - you’re right. About LZ, it doesn’t seem to like the 5-3 point to begin with :-S

Author:	gowan [ Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: taisha fail
Kirby wrote: Thanks, my terminology was wrong - you’re right. About LZ, it doesn’t seem to like the 5-3 point to begin with :-S LZ in general seems to value secure territory over influence. In the variation you showed White gets territory and Black gets influence. That could possibly be why LZ dislikes the 5-3 opening. If Black starts with the 5-3 point White can always get territory in the corner. I like the Black result of the variation you showed; Black gets thickness and can play on the right side star point to get a nice moyo. But I certainly don't understand LZ's "thinking" here.

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taisha fail http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16755	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Bill Spight [ Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: taisha fail
gowan wrote: Kirby wrote: Thanks, my terminology was wrong - you’re right. About LZ, it doesn’t seem to like the 5-3 point to begin with :-S LZ in general seems to value secure territory over influence. In the variation you showed White gets territory and Black gets influence. That could possibly be why LZ dislikes the 5-3 opening. I have not made a study of LZ, but I do not think that top bots in general favor territory over influence. That said, I think they all do not like the 5-3 in an empty corner, except perhaps on rare occasions. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 7 . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . \| $$ \| . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . 9 a , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ----------------------------------------[/go] In this diagram, I think that they do not like , , or , and maybe not . As for , my guess is that LZ prefers the press at a. That seems to be a bot favorite.

Author:	Kirby [ Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: taisha fail
well, only two days until the us go congress, so i decided to forget about what the computer thinks, and play what i want. it's too late to change my preferences at this point anyway. i'm just going to play what i want to.

Author:	dfan [ Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: taisha fail
It is generally a good idea, and In-seong backed this up in his latest lecture, to focus on your weaknesses when you are training and on your strengths when you are competing. So I agree that you should follow your instincts (they got you this far!) and don't second-guess yourself about what bots would think. Good luck at the Congress! I imagine I'll run into you there (finally).

Author:	Kirby [ Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: taisha fail
for sure - i am very excited for this weekend. i do regret that i have not been able to study much to prepare for next week, because i have been stuck remodeling our house - after work and family time, instead of being able to study go, i typically have to work on something like backsplash or tiles or building a pantry. it's good for our house, but i'm thinking i might be disappointed by my result next week. nonetheless, i'm really looking forward to it. if nothing else, i can meet friends, play a lot of go, and take a break from remodeling... and it'll be nice to meet you, too, dfan. our congress visits haven't overlapped to date

Author:	bobmcg [ Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: taisha fail
Kirby wrote: well, only two days until the us go congress, so i decided to forget about what the computer thinks, and play what i want. it's too late to change my preferences at this point anyway. i'm just going to play what i want to. When Takemiya attended the US Go Congress he gave a lecture in which he said that we should play moves we want to play. I took that to mean that if we play moves we like or want to we will have some reason why we played that way and we will learn from how it turns out. Go for it!

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