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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #41 Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:14 pm 
Honinbo

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Knotwilg wrote:
Bill, it's been a long time since I enjoyed Go so much.


Glad to hear it. :D

Quote:
Making my own positional judgment, then check with Lizzie and then see what Elf does ... the times we live in!


I have been impressed by your insights. :) In Game 5 I would not have made the crosscut, precisely because I did not like your variation. :lol: You know, I went to school on Takagawa. It has been enlightening to see so much of what I thought was true overthrown.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #42 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:26 am 
Honinbo

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Game 7.

As always, assume area scoring with 7½ pt. komi. After :b29: Elf gives one player a winrate estimate of 89½% (46.6k playouts). Which player is it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White to play. Who has the better position?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . X , X O . X . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . O . O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :D

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #43 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:43 am 
Gosei
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This time LZ did not confirm my judgment :(

It's a tough one!

Edit: a "no LZ" analysis with LZ mixed in



Last edited by Knotwilg on Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #44 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:51 am 
Honinbo

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I like black for the simple fact that white has two groups that can be weak. Black's floating group is annoying, but should be OK given the two weak white groups.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #45 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:02 am 
Lives with ko

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[spoiler]This one probably depends on who benefits from the fight.

On the top side both side have occupied a corner, so about equal. The white's right side group control less likely territory than the black lower side's group, but have more potential to expand there. Black corner group is alive with about 3 points.

So it comes down to the fight. White bottom group is effectively eyeless because of the placement at O2. White could defend against it, but that would surrender the initiative on top of only securing one eye. The black center group has some shape but no real eyes yet.

The straightforward continuation would be white M8, black O10, white Q10. Black is playing on dame and white make some territory on the right (though not entirely solid yet) but then it's black's sente and there's no obvious way to continue the attack.

...So I'm not sure but I do think I prefer black slightly here.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #46 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:39 pm 
Tengen
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Black's N4 stone looks a bit weak. I like white at P5 next.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . X , X O . B . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . O . O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . 7 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . X , X O . X . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . O 5 O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . 2 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . X , X O . X . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . O . O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . X , X O . X . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . O . O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #47 Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:01 pm 
Judan

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Another answer for black if he wants to resist p5 and get sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . X , X O . B . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . O . O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #48 Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:55 am 
Gosei
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In reply to Joaz'/Uberdude's move analysis

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #49 Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:45 am 
Gosei
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Lizzie spoiler:

Lizzie (lz240) after 10 minutes:
Image
Looks to be the only move ; )

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This post by SoDesuNe was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #50 Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:18 am 
Honinbo

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I have finished my discussion of Game 6 on #39 ( https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=248895#p248895 ).

I shall reserve this post for my discussion of Game 7. :)

Game 7

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Kitani Minoru, 8 dan (W) - Sakata Eio, 7 dan, Sept. 6, 1950
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . X , X O . X . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . O . O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


GoGoD 1950-09-06a, 4½ pt. komi

White is ahead. Elf estimates White winrate as 89½% with 46.6k playouts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Elf's recommended continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . O O . . 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . 6 X , X O . X . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . O . O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf like's Joaz's play for :w30: (40.8k playouts). :) After :b31: :w32: is a one space jump. You often see such a jump on the 4th line to bolster a group next to a corner. Elf probably stopped the variation here because the next play had fewer than 1.5k playouts. White's high winrate is not all that obvious.

To my eyes, though, Black's small life in the bottom right corner suggests that Black has made a mistake. Usually when you have a joseki where one player lives in the corner and makes a floating group, the corner is reasonably large, with 7 or more points of territory.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Dual purpose play, minor error
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 B . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . 1 . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b7: is the textbook play for the formation on the bottom side, breaking symmetry with a dual purpose play, a combination of a 3 space pincer and a 5 space extension. (From this and other games, it is plain that Kitani, White, did not place much stock in those textbooks. ;)) The idea of making a dual purpose play is not a bad heuristic, but it is only a heuristic. Elf prefers the approach in the top left corner at a by 5½%. :w8:, by contrast, is a sizable mistake, according to Elf, losing 15% by comparison with the bot's favorite play at b. :w8: was, and still may be, joseki, BTW.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Elf's variation for White 8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After the kikashi in the right side (25.6k playouts), :w12: encloses the top left corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Elf's variation for White 8, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . 2 X . . . . . X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Then Black plays the press against the bottom left 3-4 stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Game continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 4 3 5 . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b13: loses 12½% by comparison with a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Elf's mainline variation for Black 13
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X W W . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 4 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . . . O 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b13: gets 119.1k playouts. :w16: is a new move in this joseki. :b17: threatens the two :wc: stones. After :b19: :w20: crosscuts and :w22: plays to take the cutting stone on the second line.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm23 Elf's mainline variation for Black 13, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . X X W W 6 |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . O . O X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . 8 X 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w28: saves the :wc: stones. Then :b29: threatens White's other four stones in the corner. :b31: makes life. Then :w32: (46.1k playouts) enlarges White's eyespace.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Elf's mainline variation for Black 13, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 9 . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O 8 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 . X X O O O |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , 3 2 . O . O X X 7 |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black blocks White on the bottom side. :w42: (17.5k playouts) carries the fight into the center.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 Elf's mainline variation for Black 13, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 9 . . . 4 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 5 3 . 2 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X X O O O |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , X O . O . O X X X |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X 7 . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b43: is tesuji. This is a long variation, thanks mainly to the large number of playouts for :b13:. It is long enough to show the value of Black's wall on the bottom side. :)

Back to the actual game. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Oh, no, I couldn't.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . . . O 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If :b13: lost 12½%, :w14: returned the favor, and then some, losing 16½% by comparison with a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Elf's mainline variation for :w14:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 0 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After :w14: Black goes for outside influence, pressing against the C-04 stone and then returning to press down against the White group on the right side, and finally pushing down against the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Black blunders
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . . . O 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


With :b15: Sakata blundered, in Elf's eyes, losing 26½% by comparison with a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm15 Elf's mainline variation for :b15:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 3 . O X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . 1 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black sacrifices three stones for outside influence and sente.

Back to the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Error upon error
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . 8 . . . O X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . . . O 2 X . 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf regards :b17: as a minor error, losing 5%. Then :b19: loses 16% more. :o Another blunder, I think, given the sequence of errors. Then :w20: runs out to the center, attacking Black's floating stones. Sakata was known for his ability at shinogi, but it may have played him false here. Small life in the corner was simply not good enough, in Elf's eyes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Elf's choice for Black 19, kikashi before living
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . 1 . O O X . 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black plays :b19: and :b21: with sente before living with :b23:. These plays build central influence and support the :bc: stones. :)

There are no more errors losing 10% up to :w30:.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Everything with love.


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:10 pm, edited 12 times in total.

This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Knotwilg
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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #51 Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:11 pm 
Tengen
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Uberdude wrote:
Another answer for black if he wants to resist p5 and get sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . X , X O . B . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . O . O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wouldn't mind playing the white side here. It feels like aji keshi after white replies:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . X , X O . B . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . O . O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and it preserves eye space for the lower white group, because the O2 placement doesn't deprive white of an eye anymore:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . 7 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . X , X O . B . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X . O 5 O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


EDIT: I just read Knotwilg's post, and his attempt at handling the placement may be a bit ambitious
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O 0 7 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . X , X O 8 B . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X 9 O 6 O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


EDIT2: I just read SoDesuNe's post, and I am pleased to see that the computers sometimes get it right.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #52 Posted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:39 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O X O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . X , X O X X 2 O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . X O O X O O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Oops, indeed

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Post #53 Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:59 am 
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I have finished my discussion of Game 7 at #50 ( https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=248945#p248945 ).

Game 8

As always, assume area scoring with 7½ pt. komi. After :w30: Elf estimates one player's winrate at 93½% with 17.9k playouts. Which player is it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play. Who is better?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . O . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #54 Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:33 am 
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I like black - white seems thin

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Post #55 Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:35 am 
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I seem to have a knack for consistently choosing the underdog in this thread...

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Post #56 Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:50 am 
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Kirby wrote:
I seem to have a knack for consistently choosing the underdog in this thread...


My rule of thumb when comparing Elf's variations. The player who looks better is the one who made the mistake. :lol:

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Post #57 Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:51 am 
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No Lizzie:

Again very difficult. I could easily find arguments to put both way ahead:

Black! Black has three corners. White one. White's only other territory can be easily invaded by a clamp at G18. White's only area for development, the one on the left, can be invaded and reduced to a weak group of stones. The bottom group is already undercut. White's area for development should be the center, but Black's influence in the lower right is reducing that already. Black has sente.

White! Black's influence in the lower right is annihilated by White's low stones. It can be easily poked at and turned into a heavy group. White has stable territory at the top and can develop on the left side. Two of Black's corners are actually small. White has komi.

That's when looking at it from the position only. When I look at this board and ask myself would I rather have sente than komi, the answer is yes, because there's such an obviously good move here.



Lizzie:



Edit: a dwyrin argument

One of the heuristics dwyrin uses when making his positional judgments of an opening, is "how many stones are on the 2nd line". Black has 3, White two (and they are the effect of a (filled) ponnuki. In particular the low black stone in the upper left is suspicious. We know the bots have dropped such low sliders from their joseki. Actually, the presence of this old joseki should have given away the answer.


Last edited by Knotwilg on Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

This post by Knotwilg was liked by: Bill Spight
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Post #58 Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:15 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
I like black - white seems thin

I like white - black seems over-concentrated. :D

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Post #59 Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:52 am 
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Game 9.

After :w44: Elf estimates the winrate for one player as 90½% with 33.8k playouts. Which player is it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm44 Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :)

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Post #60 Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:10 am 
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If it's not Black then I know nothing.

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