Hmmmm. No discussion. Is this one too easy?
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| How is your positional judgement? http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=16909 |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
Hmmmm. No discussion. Is this one too easy?
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
My discussionn of Game 8. Sakata Elo, 9 dan (White) vs. Iwamote Kaoru, 8 dan, 1956. GoGoD 1956-00-00c.sgf. Komi = 4½ pts. After  White has a winrate estimate of 93½% (17.9k playouts). However, Black, Iwamoto, won by resignation. cuts two White groups apart. Then White has many options.  is Elf's top choice, but it has only 8.3k playouts. After  I guess the number of playouts dropped below 1.5k, which is why Elf stops there. Elf reckons that  loses 14% by comparison with the approach to the top left corner at a. @  According to Elf  loses 19½% by comparison with connecting at 14. At the time was considered to be joseki, the connection was not. is an interesting sacrifice. After   approaches the top left corner. Then  captures  .  makes a base with sente. OC, Elf does not consider this result as good as approaching the top left corner with . secures the corner, but Elf thinks it loses 13½% by comparison with the attack at a on the  stones.After White makes eye shape.
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
A short discussion: |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
Knotwilg wrote: A short discussion: I disagree that bots prefer territory, but that discussion would take us too far afield, and is too abstract for my liking right now. We can just ask the bots in any particular position what they like. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
Game 10. With the usual assumptions, after  Elf estimates a winrate of 91% (119.7k playouts) for one player. Which one is it?Enjoy. 
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
| Author: | Knotwilg [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
Game 9, discussion of Elf commentary Takagawa (W) - Rin Kaiho, Meijin Final, Game 3, 1969-09-09a. Komi = 5+ pts. (I.e., 5 pts. with White winning jigo.) After  Elf gives Black an estimated winrate of 90½% with 33.8k playouts. However, White, Takagawa, won by 8 pts.Elf's recommended continuation of the game.  leans on the White group on the right side; then  tops the tree, capping the White center stones. As White runs out, Black's attack promises to erase White's potential in the left center.Earlier in the game: Which side to block the 3-3 invasion from is a question I cannot always answer. Usually the difference is small, but in this case it is 10%, and Elf recommends the opposite alternative to the one that appears to be the correct direction of play. (Takagawa would know.  ) How come?Here is a clue. Instead of the traditional joseki (now obsolete) taking outside strength, White plays the two step hane and takes the corner. White does not make outside strength to work with the stones. Instead, Black has a weakish group in hostile territory.  secures territory while attacking the Black group. Black makes elbow room with sente and then turn to his territorial framework in the top right quadrant.Takagawa played at 21, but Elf says to play the two step hane here, as well. (The difference only comes to 1%, however.) In this variation the stone is weak. reduces the Black framework in the top right, while Black attacks the stone. On balance, this is better for Black than when he makes a weak group on the left side.In the actual game Black played the hane-and-connect in the bottom left corner, which was joseki before the AI era. In this case that is Elf's choice, too, probably because White ends up overconcentrated, given the stones.  reduces the left side. But loses 16½% and then loses 11%. Each side made smaller errors, but White made three significant mistakes that gave Black a commanding lead. and make territory with the White wall. Black enlarges the Black moyo and then and  reduce it.  blocks on the third line with eye shape. Then secures the corner and threatens to connect underneath.Takagawa's underneath connection surprised me. It seemed too territorial. I expected something like Elf's in this diagram. is on the frontier of moyos. threatens to cut the four White stones off, but White turns and then boldly jumps into Black's moyo. OC, Black still has around an 80% advantage.
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
Game 11. After Elf gives one player a winrate estimate of 90½% (28.3k playouts). Which player is it?Enjoy!
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
No Lizzie |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
When the dust finally settles, I think that I prefer black - but not strongly enough to predict a win rate of 90+ percent. |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
Lizzie |
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| Author: | TelegraphGo [ Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
This thread has been very enlightening for me. It's surprising how challenging it is to tell the balance of a game when you don't know how it was played! I think I'm getting the hang of it as we go on, starting to figure it out faster and faster. Personally, the only thing that would make this thread any better for me would be the inclusion of "even" as a possibility. After all, when I'm playing a game, it's just as likely to be even as lopsided! |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
Game 10. Discussion of Elf's commentary GoGoD 1956-00-00a. Miyashita Shuyo, 8 dan (W) vs. Fujisawa Kuranosuke, 9 dan, 4½ pt. komi After Black's estimated winrate: 91% (119.7k playouts). Black, Fujisawa, won by resignation.Black plays sente against the White corner and then plays a shoulder hit against White's orphan in the top right. White bolsters his center group and then Black puts pressure on the White group on the top side.  invades the bottom right corner. After  Black's advantage seems fairly apparent to me.Earlier play. The natural looking loses 10½% according to Elf.BTW, when I say that a move loses a certain percentage, I mean by comparison with Elf's recommended play, not with Elf's winrate estimate of the previous position, as is often the custom with other comentators. Black tenukies to probe the bottom left corner, leading to a complicated fight. White secures a large corner in exchange for outside strength. Then White makes a ko in the top left. After the clamp of in the top left, encloses the top right corner. Then invades the bottom right corner, leading to Black building a large sphere of influence on the right side into the center.  makes a shoulder hit against the top right corner, and starts a large scale attack against . Bear in mind that Elf considers this around 10% worse for Black than the previous variation. After loses 10½% returns the favor in spades, losing 25%, a real blunder.  was the 3-3 attachment in the top left corner. Elf agrees with that choice of plays.We have already seen Elf's recommendation for , the attachment at C-15. This variation shows Elf's recommended continuation for White after the blunder of . cuts off the 3-3 stone.  is played as a sacrifice. makes some strength on the top side in exchange for the corner sacrifice.Next White bolsters his center and then nails down the top left corner. Then Black leans on the bottom left corner to strengthen his group on the left. A little later in the game, Elf thinks that the solid connection, , loses 11% by comparison with a.Elf says to play this kikashi first. When you see it, it looks kind of obvious. I doubt that Miyashita overlooked this. The bots seem to be less concerned than humans about aji keshi. In the game was played at a. Elf prefers the jump in the center by 1%, which is well within any margin of error, but I thought that this variation was of interest. To my mind, leaving the four White stones just sitting there is almost an admission that White's recent play in the center was erroneous.
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
TelegraphGo wrote: Personally, the only thing that would make this thread any better for me would be the inclusion of "even" as a possibility. After all, when I'm playing a game, it's just as likely to be even as lopsided! I agree that even is an important category. However, I think that these problems are hard enough as is. For reference, I am providing some examples which Elf evaluates as even. Hidden out of courtesy. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
Game 12. After Elf estimates a winrate of 96½% (8.8k playouts) for one player. Which player is it?Enjoy!
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| Author: | TelegraphGo [ Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
96.5%?!  |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How is your positional judgement? |
@TelegraphGo et al |
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may be too thin but I like Black here.
and 
as they make territory and eye space while attacking.
, while very shapely, seems the wrong direction.
so it's easy to say that W must be winning with perfect play. I didn't think that neural networks 'thought' like this, though, so I'm a little curious as to the implications.