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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #81 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:28 pm 
Honinbo

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TelegraphGo wrote:
96.5%?! :shock:


Yes, hard to believe, isn't it? :o But, as Uberdude and others have pointed out, Elf is the most extreme of the bots in its winrate estimates. It will be interesting to see what LZ and KataGo say. :)

Also, this estimate is backed by only 8.8k playouts, so it is not all that reliable. I don't know why, as :b29: in the game was also Elf's top choice. In the commentaries Elf's choice sometimes has more than 200k playouts.

Also, with the possible exception of AlphaGoTeach, I do not think that the winrate estimates are good to 0.1%. That's why I round to the nearest ½. :)

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Post #82 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:35 pm 
Lives in gote

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Katago evaluation :

Over 30k+ playouts, Katago evaluate Black at +7.8pts and 68% winrate (with 7.5 komi):
Attachment:
Katago.png
Katago.png [ 1.57 MiB | Viewed 553 times ]


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Post #83 Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:57 am 
Gosei
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I say Black, based on the following no-Lizzie analysis. I could miss something in White's favor.

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Post #84 Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:44 am 
Judan

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Rather than performing a count / positional evaluation of the current position, I will try to imagine a plausible sequence of play to reach it and rate the moves with my Elf hat on, a whole game tewari as it were.

The order of play in the various major areas of top left, right side, lower left might not be like this but its vaguely plausible.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Elf probably thinks 2 and 4 lose a bit, -5%. 6 is a vague side move, shimari is better, -10%. 7 maybe prefer low, but maybe not with 6 there. Meh. 9 isn't joseki book ish but reminds me of AlphaGo vs Lee Sedol game 1 so let's say it's ok.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , 4 . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 9 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 8 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

12 hanging connect is slow, -7. 16 is wishy washy, base is more important so should kosumi at c14 or tenuki, - >5. 17 is probably ok but how about peep first? 18 is another vague side moves, Elf doesn't like side moves (e.g. top right 3-3 better, real profit). -8, also too close to o3 but maybe o3 came later. Shoulder hit and push seems ok.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O 3 . . . 5 . O . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Not really sure 23 would happen in a pro game, because 24 would hane, so let's say equally bad and I don't know how this shape happened (maybe approach black 4-4, tenuki, 3-3 and then block lower side and white connects in reply to bulge point?). 5 is cramped, but makes k3 bad so ok. 26 side move again -5. 28 is probably a little slack, -3, because it allows black to make good solid profit and should approach at 29 and admit there will be fighting. (Later percents are smaller as less % left to lose).

Sum of my white badness: dia 1: 5+10, dia 2: 7+8+5=20, dia 3: 8. Total 42. That's 92%, near enough to 96.


This post by Uberdude was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, Joaz Banbeck, Knotwilg
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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #85 Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:54 am 
Lives with ko

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Bill Spight wrote:
Game 12.

Disclaimer: I checked with KataGo (and Kombilo) before posting. But my initial thoughts were: White has made two side-splitting moves, on the right and at the bottom, and the bots tend not to like these. The top left doesn't look that efficient for White, especially with those two center stones, and the K16 stone doesn't look all that great either.
When I tried to set up the game position for KataGo, I had serious trouble finding reasonable-looking moves for White to arrive at the position. It all seemed somewhat artificial, and the top left looks like the result of a one-space high pincer, which I think wasn't that well-regarded even before the bot age.

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Post #86 Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:21 am 
Gosei
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LZ analysis with comments



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Post #87 Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:19 am 
Judan

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Knotwilg, that press and wedge middlegame sequence was kind of debunked (though most likely not common knowledge in the West and probably not for all pros in East either) even before AI, and AI does generally take a dim view of it. See a nice tewari showing why on Viktor Lin's blog at #4 in https://viktorlingo.com/2018/02/16/top- ... ol-part-2/


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Post #88 Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:01 am 
Gosei
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Uberdude wrote:
Knotwilg, that press and wedge middlegame sequence was kind of debunked (though most likely not common knowledge in the West and probably not for all pros in East either) even before AI, and AI does generally take a dim view of it. See a nice tewari showing why on Viktor Lin's blog at #4 in https://viktorlingo.com/2018/02/16/top- ... ol-part-2/


Thanks! Once I saw the AI response, I remembered having seen before that this was already subtoptimal by human standards. I hadn't got rid of it yet though :)

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Post #89 Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:08 pm 
Honinbo

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My discussion of Elf's commentary on Game 11.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 Lee Changho 7 dan (W) - Cho Hun-hyeon 9 dan, 1995-01-04c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After :w34: Elf estimates a 90½% winrate for White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm35 Game continuation.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . 2 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


These game plays are Elf's top choices.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 Elf's mainline for :b43: (135.5k playouts)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 9 3 6 . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White connects to safety, Black makes life in the bottom left corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 Elf's mainline, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . 4 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . 2 3 . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X 1 . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White reduces Black territorial moyo on the top side.

Earlier in the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Play joseki, lose 22½%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I supppose we should regard this as a blunder. It looks like a cultural blind spot. The hane at a is the popular choice among humans, but Waltheri ( http://ps.waltheri.net ) shows :b19: played about ⅛ of the time in its database. IMO, that is enough to make it joseki. Still, as the game record indicates, Black makes small life with bad shape in the corner. This move was barely on Elf's radar, with only 1 playout, while a got 35.3k playouts. This option may cease to be joseki in the near future. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Elf's mainline for :b19:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X 6 . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 0 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


OC, in those days :w22: was generally regarded as a beginner's play. It still does not show up in Waltheri's database. ;) :w26: was heretical at the time, as it gives Black an ideal extension from the :bc: and :b27:. :w28: starts a potentially complex fight. Elf prefers it to a by only 1%, however, well within Elf's margin of error.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 Play joseki, lose 18½%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . b O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


When I was learning go, :b33: was the textbook reply to :w32:. It still is the plurality choice in Waltheri's database. Elf prefers to form a small base at a, by 18½%, with 107.5k playouts to 2. :o To me, and maybe to Cho, Black a does not appeal, as it approaches White's strength. (White b, as Knotwilg has pointed out, is sente against Black's corner.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm33 Elf's mainline for :b33:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 2 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w34: is a standard tesuji against the one space base. :b35: replies strongly to keep White separated while running out into the center..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm42 Elf's mainline, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . X . . X , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . 1 O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . 4 . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w42: takes the sente against the corner, then :w44: tops the tree, attacking Black from the center. I would anticipate more play in the bottom left, but I guess that Black's next play would have fewer than 1500 playouts, which seems to be the Elf team's cutoff point for showing Elf's choices.

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— Winona Adkins

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Post #90 Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:39 am 
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Game 13

After :w30: Elf gives one player a winrate of 88½% (30k playouts). Which player is it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O O X X O O O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X O O X . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :)

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— Winona Adkins

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Post #91 Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:39 am 
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Game 13, no-Lizzie analysis

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Post #92 Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:38 am 
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My discussion of Elf's commentary on Game 12, hidden for convenience. :)

GoGoD 1995-09-30a. Yang Keon, 3 dan (W) vs. Lee Changho, 7 dan. 5½ pt. komi.

After :b29: Elf estimates Black's winrate as 96½% with only 8.8k playouts. (I suppose that there were a lot of reasonable options for :b29:.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 Black is ahead.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . O . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf's mainline game continuation for :w30:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Mainline game continuation (32.3k playouts)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . W . . 3 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w30: is big. But then there are several reasonable plays for Black, so the number of playouts per move drops precipitously. That is why Elf's variation stops so soon. There are just too few playouts to have confidence in further plays. :-| :b31: attacks the :wc: stone, and then :w32: attaches for sabaki.

Earlier in the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 White feels his oats
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w4: is and was unusual. Yang was 19 or 20, and was feeling his oats. He has since made 9 dan, and Sensei's Library says that "Yang uses experimental corner plays." Elf thinks that :w4: loses 12% from par, and also that :w6: loses 8% by comparison with the enclosure at a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7 Black returns the favor
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf thinks that :b7: loses 12% by comparison with the usual joseki play, the hane at 8. Then Elf thinks that :w10: loses 9½% by comparison with the kosumi at a, which seems kind of obvious when you see it. But :w10: was joseki at the time and is still the majority choice on Waltheri.

When I was learning go :b11: was the textbook play. The reasoning was that, although it was only a 3 space extension from the 3 stone Black wall, that was OK because a White keima at b would require a response. Better just to take a slight hit. Also, Takagawa taught that the Black wall needed an extension because it had no eye potential (or very little). OC, today's bots will have none of that. Elf regards :b11: as losing 13% by comparison with c, approaching the top left corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Elf's mainline variation for :b11:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 7 . 6 . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After :b11: White chooses one of Elf's favorite joseki, the kick and extend one space on the third line. Then Black plays the double keima at E-07. Don't let the double keima get away, as the saying goes. To me this is the answer to the conundrum of how to support the weakish Black wall. Don't extend. Play the double keima instead. :D :w16: plays a wedge on the bottom side, "killing Black's influence," as the amateur saying goes. ;) :b17: approaches :w16: and makes some territory. :w18: makes a base.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Elf's mainline variation for :b11:, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 5 4 6 . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 7 X . O . . O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b19: and :b21: attack the White group on the bottom side. Then :w22: and :w24: defend and force a bit of overconcentration on Black. Then :w26: invades the top right corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Splitting play is a mistake.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White played the splitting play, :w12:, instead of enclosing the top left corner. Note that it is at R-09, not R-10. The reason, as Sakata explained in his writings, is that it is closer to the Black moyo on the bottom side, which means that :b13: can extend only as far as R-07 instead of R-08 (b), making a bigger moyo. Be that as it may, Elf thinks that :w12: loses a whopping 18% by comparison with a. Today's bots really devalue the sides early in the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Elf's mainline variation for :w12:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 6 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After :w12: encloses the top left corner, :b13: does not play the "big" point on the right side, but makes a tight enclosure of the bottom right corner. Elf has a slight preference for this enclosure over the one at a, perhaps because it is closer to making territory. :w14: invades the top right corner. :b15: blocks on the right side and follows up with :b19: to create a large sphere of influence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm13 Elf's mainline variation for :b13:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf regards :b13: as a minor error, losing 5½% by comparison with this approach to the top left corner. White plays one of Elf's favorite joseki, and then :b17: encloses the bottom right corner. It does not appear that :w12: at R-09 (marked) has hampered Black in any way.

Back to the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm12 Questionable extension
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The extension, :w16:, was questionable at the time, without an enclosure of the top left corner. Elf thinks that it loses 9% to par. (Usually in these discussions I do not mention losses under 10%, but I think that these are of some interest, and they do add up to White's disadvantage.) Elf also considers :w14: as a minor error, losing 6½% by comparison with the enclosure at a. Takagawa wrote that it was OK to tenuki instead of making a base for :w12: after the approach, :b13:, because if Black now pincered :w12:, White could be satisfied with having prevented Black from making the ideal extension on the right side. That reasoning no longer holds up, as Black is in no hurry to play on the right side. But Elf still prefers the enclosure over the base.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Elf's variation for :w14:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After :w14: encloses the top left corner, :b15: encloses the top right. Note that it leaves White room to make a base with the two space extension. Note also that White does not do so, preferring the Go Seigen/AI shoulder blow. Whether that is because Elf regards the two space base as weak, or because at this point it prefers central influence to territory, Elf does not say. ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Elf's mainline variation for :w16:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 3 . 2 . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After :w16: encloses the top left corner, :b17: extends only to L-17, inviting the White extension to J-17. After each side has made a moyo on the top side, :b21: attacks the White group on the right side while enlarging the Black sphere of influence in the bottom half of the board. Then :w22: invades Black's top side moyo. The stratagem of :b17: is interesting. :)

Back to the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Dirk bad?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf thinks that :w18: loses 9½% by comparison with the underneath attachment at a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Elf's mainline variation for :w18:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 Q . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:wt: = :w28:

:w18: and :w20: secure the corner, then :w22: turns to the top left corner. After :b23: White lets the top left corner fend for itself and attacks the top right corner. Note :w26:. Many players would play :wt: ( :w28: ) instead.

Back to the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Little Bad Peep
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , 6 . a . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 9 . O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Elf thinks that the peep, :w24:, loses 11½% by comparison with a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24 Elf's mainline variation for :w24:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . 9 . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 8 . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . X , 4 . 1 3 . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w24: is a natural connection for the White stones on the top side. Black has other reasonable options for :b27:, which gets 24.4k playouts. Elf's second choice is the pincer at a, which gets 13.5k playouts. White's connection is secure, so :w28: shifts to the submarine attack against the top left corner. :b29: is a calm, solid response. Then :w30: is a shape play to take away a possible eye shape for Black. It is striking to me how often Elf chooses plays that prevent the opponent from making good shape. :)

Not exactly a conclusion.

To me the main evidence of Black being so far ahead is the disarray of the White stones. On each side White has stones that don't seem to be doing much. The stones in the top left are disconnected and high. The stone on the top side is not connected to White's corner stones. The stone on the bottom side is a singleton, and White's base on the right side is weak. Elf's review of the game to date indicates that the main culprits are Elf's failure, time and again, to enclose the top left corner, the splitting play on the right side, the extension on the top side, and the peep in the top left instead of connecting to the White stone on the top side.

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Post #93 Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:05 pm 
Honinbo

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Game 14

After :w34: Elf gives one player a winrate estimate of 91% (24.4k playouts). Which player is it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34 Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :D

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— Winona Adkins

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Post #94 Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:12 pm 
Gosei
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Without analyzing the position thoroughly, I would say that White is ahead. White has territory in 3 places and a flexible stone in the 4th, plus komi. Black has all his eggs in that central basket and it's not a very well defined basket. Myself I'm not very good at invading or reducing huge spheres of influence, as I tend to overplay and die. But I'm quite confident the bots don't like Black's influence strategy.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Analysis
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . b . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . a . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X 1 . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . d . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Adding some analysis: if Black wants to make a sizeable moyo, he should probably start here, because if he doesn't, then a White move there would destroy any plan in the center. White has many places to start: A to make a dent into the moyo and threaten a large corner. B to make shape for life, C for reduction and expansion, D similar to B, and E is a cutting point. Overall, it's hard to call Black "thick", he's rather thin.

It's hard to say where it went wrong for Black (who is probably Takemiya). The marked stone strikes me as "making central territory". Also, the 5-5 kosumi seems a bit lukewarm and not cooperating with other stones.


Last edited by Knotwilg on Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #95 Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:00 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Elf's mainline variation for :b11:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The resilience bots find in walls without extensions never ceases to surprise me and may indeed void the neo-proverb "bots dislike influence".
I can see how the keima helps against :w3: but how exactly does Black continue locally? a, b, c?

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Post #96 Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:07 pm 
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One one hand, black has that huge moyo while white has not much, on the other hand, that moyo is a bit too big and black is going all in on it turning into enough territory to win the game.

But, the right side looks like a complete disaster for white. Something like this could follow which seems to be good for black, though I'm not sure if it's the right timing :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Meanwhile the bottom can't really be counted as white territory yet, though he will probably get some of it. The top left corner is white's but what will happen on the rest of the left side is completely undecided.

I can't imagine black not being ahead.


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Post #97 Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:19 pm 
Gosei
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Bki wrote:
First I was positively surprised by your suggestion but then saw White has a countermeasure. Didn't see that from the start though.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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Post #98 Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:26 pm 
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Knotwilg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Elf's mainline variation for :b11:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . y . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . z . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The resilience bots find in walls without extensions never ceases to surprise me and may indeed void the neo-proverb "bots dislike influence".


I don't think that our current understanding of outside influence approaches what the bots are doing. My impression of AlphaGo was that it was very center oriented by comparison with today's pros, other bots not so much. With Elf I feel like it's corners first (and occupying the last open corner is important), sides second, and center almost any time (but not independently).

Quote:
I can see how the keima helps against :w3: but how exactly does Black continue locally? a, b, c?


:w1: was not on Elf's radar, so the commentaries are not revealing about that question. Elf's other revealed choices besides 2 were y and z. What does LZ have to say?

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Post #99 Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:38 pm 
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Bki wrote:
Quote:
One one hand, black has that huge moyo while white has not much, on the other hand, that moyo is a bit too big and black is going all in on it turning into enough territory to win the game.

But, the right side looks like a complete disaster for white. Something like this could follow which seems to be good for black, though I'm not sure if it's the right timing :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Great idea! :) In the commentary Elf shows how it is done.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O 1 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This can be played with sente. :)

Quote:
Meanwhile the bottom can't really be counted as white territory yet, though he will probably get some of it. The top left corner is white's but what will happen on the rest of the left side is completely undecided.


The double White keima in the top left corner is vulnerable, which is why you usually see one of them as a kosumi instead. Not that Black can't break through without preparation, but the threat is there. :)

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #100 Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:14 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W LZ & Kata
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . 3 . 6 a , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . 5 c 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Both LeelaZero and Kata defend at :b4: and then attack the white shape at :b6:
Next LZ sacrifices by pushing up at A, while Kata switches to the corner with B.
At :b4: LZ is more optimistic (61%) than Kata (57%) about Black's chances.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by: Bill Spight
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