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 Post subject: 501 Opening Problems and a committee of AIs
Post #1 Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:52 pm 
Lives in gote

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I've started re-reading 501 Opening Problems and comparing the results with bot analysis. Now I know this unreasonable on a couple of levels:
  • If I can learn to play the opening as well as Rob van Zeijst, that's already a big improvement on my current level. The fact that Rob might be outplayed by an AI doesn't matter.
  • For puny amateurs like me, learning to play good but not perfect moves that make sense to a human might actually be a better strategy than searching for the "best" (but incomprehensible) move.
Nevertheless, I'm curious as to how much the various opening principles capture objectively good play, and how much comes down to personal style or fashion.

So far I've been through the first 20 problems, and compared the book moves against the output of six different bots (using about a minute of thinking time for each bot). I'm thinking that if six different styles of training and analysis all come up with the same move, then there's a fair chance that it really is the best move. But if strong AIs disagree amongst themselves, there might be some interesting discussions ahead :-)

The bots that I'm using at the moment are:
  • Leela Zero with network number 242
  • Leela Zero with ELF weights
  • Leela Zero with Leela Master weights GX47 -- for a more "human" perspective :-)
  • KataGo with 20-block network
  • Ray with LZ network number 173 (no particular reason for that number, it's just the one I installed last year and I'm too lazy to change)
  • AQ

To me it makes sense to sort the problems into four categories:
  1. The bots unanimously agree with the book move.
  2. The bots unanimously come up with a move different from the book.
  3. The bots don't agree with each other, but at least one of them chose the book move.
  4. The bots don't agree, and none of them chose the book move.

I'm guessing the authors of 501OP were looking for positions with a clear-cut first move, so you'd hope to see most problems in class 1 or 2. My results for problems 1-20 were:
  • Class 1: problems 3, 9, 14, 18
  • Class 2: problems 6, 12
  • Class 3: problems 1, 2, 7, 8, 10, 11, 15, 16, 17, 20
  • Class 4: problems 4, 5, 13, 19

Below I'll post what I thought were the most interesting positions. (I'm certainly not going to go ahead and post the entire book, but I think five out of 501 is fair use.)


Last edited by xela on Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This post by xela was liked by 3 people: Applebaps, Bill Spight, Uberdude
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 Post subject: Re: 501 Opening Problems and a committee of AIs
Post #2 Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:14 pm 
Judan

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Interesting and methodological work xela, thanks, the committee of bots is something I was too lazy to apply rigourously. There was a thread with some similar bot analysis of book problems in the computer go section a while back with Rob's 'Making good shape' and then I looked at some Shuko problems with Elf. Could I suggest relabelling category 2 as 4, and shift 3 and 4 up to 2 and 3 so that they form a continuum of "book right" to "book wrong".

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 Post subject: Re: 501 Opening Problems and a committee of AIs
Post #3 Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:17 pm 
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Here are five positions where I was at least a little bit surprised by the results. All black to move (actually the first 106 problems in the book are all black to play, I'm not sure why the imbalance!) The book isn't specific about komi (I assumed 7.5 komi for the bot analysis; more likely 6.5 or 5.5 around the time the book was written).

I'll wait a couple of days before revealing which problem is in which class, so you can form your own impressions first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position A. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position B. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position C. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position D. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position E. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 501 Opening Problems and a committee of AIs
Post #4 Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:23 pm 
Lives in gote

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Uberdude wrote:
...the committee of bots is something I was too lazy to apply rigourously...

Indeed, creating SGFs for the positions and loading/reloading different files and software took more time than I'd planned for. If I wanted to do more of this, I'd be writing a bunch of scripts to automate the process. (Or contributing to the Kombilo source code to add engine integration there.)

Then again, there's a fine line between laziness and procrastination. I could be using this time to solve tsumego problems and play games, or keep up with "real life"...


This post by xela was liked by: Knotwilg
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Post #5 Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:26 pm 
Lives in gote

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Uberdude wrote:
Could I suggest relabelling category 2 as 4, and shift 3 and 4 up to 2 and 3 so that they form a continuum of "book right" to "book wrong".

I had in mind a different continuum: "clear-cut" to "confusing" :-)

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 Post subject: Re: 501 Opening Problems and a committee of AIs
Post #6 Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:28 pm 
Lives in gote

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Uberdude wrote:
There was a thread with some similar bot analysis of book problems in the computer go section a while back with Rob's 'Making good shape' and then I looked at some Shuko problems with Elf.

Shape problems (and to a lesser extent, other sorts of tesuji) are tricky because the right answer (or urgency) can vary with context. I'd love to have a software tool that will drop a corner position into different full-board contexts to test whether the analysis does or doesn't change.

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 Post subject: Re: 501 Opening Problems and a committee of AIs
Post #7 Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:20 pm 
Lives with ko

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Uberdude wrote:
Could I suggest relabelling category 2 as 4, and shift 3 and 4 up to 2 and 3 so that they form a continuum of "book right" to "book wrong".

I agree that that order would make more sense.

Category 2 seems to be the smallest, so I would say the book is doing pretty OK. Another interesting thing would be to use KataGo to evaluate how wrong the book is when it's wrong (how many points does it lose compared to the AI suggestions).


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 Post subject: Re: 501 Opening Problems and a committee of AIs
Post #8 Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:06 am 
Gosei
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My unsollicited analysis: what I would play according to traditional theory and so I expect is the book answer (A) and what I think the/some bots will say (B)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position A. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position B. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position C. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position D. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ I think bots will also play A
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . O . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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Post #9 Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:26 am 
Judan

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My analysis (WIP):

A: Class 3.
A side extension on the right from both players' shimaris is the obvious opening lesson of this problem, though I find the position rather unrealistic as I don't see how white c15 could ever get played in a natural flow of the opening before the right side, so maybe the problem is more of a "given the players have played the opening moves in the wrong order, find the one they should have played earlier and do it now". In the middle and low at a most likely book answer, though high at b also possible. Bots generally don't like side extensions so much, but given the corners already have their 2nd move and another urgent bot-style opening move doesn't jump out at me maybe some of them (particularly AQ or Ray, I don't know their style well but I think more 'human') would choose it, so I guess Class 3 (at least 1 but not unanimous bot agreement). But I guess more like attaching to the shimari at c. (Knotwilg's outside attachment is almost always bad against big shimari). Also other side extensions might be possible and I think an old theory book and a bot could possibly both like d. Throwing out other extravagant bot style moves I added e too as an attempt to push the boundary of the top right quadrant moyo and strengthen k17 in sente before you play on the right side, though maybe that's dreaming (it's also trying to make c15 overconcentrated). m3 is another move on the radar but I think books and bots would agree an extension on the right side is bigger.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position A. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . e . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . b a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . c O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


B: Class 1 but becomes class 3 with meta-reasoning.
Pretty sure book wants to hane at head of 2 with a, and would have thought all bots would agree, but given xela selected this position as interesting I guess at least one of them doesn't want to play it, but probably most do. Or maybe he did want to include a unanimous agreement one as an example! Also this is related to a position from the Shibano on AI thread JF posted: in 5th diagram of https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=249084#p249084 following white's attachment and black's extend up it's like black decided to extend instead of hane in this shape where he has the opportunity to play the better hane. But I can't really convince myself a strong bot would play something else (I marked a few other moves on the policy network) so maybe back to class 1...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position B. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . a O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . d . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


C: Class ?
Reducing the lower side with its bad coordination of a moyo and low 3rd line stone using a shoulder hit at a is probably the book answer, and bots likely like it too. Another idea is the gentler b, hoping that white answers at j4 and then black can press and develop the centre and right with m4 and o4, a classic combo of the kind books teach you, though it does feel white is maybe being overly cooperative. Nothing else looks as urgent to me, though if black doesn't reduce the lower side and white gets to grow (is it kakoi?) with k6 black probably doesn't cry so much as it's still not so spectacular for white. The top left is fairly open, but I'm not really sure what I or a bot would do there.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position C. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by: xela
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 Post subject: Re: 501 Opening Problems and a committee of AIs
Post #10 Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:09 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Position A'. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


When White has a keima enclosure in the bottom right, :b1: is the textbook move, the point being that it threatens :b3: and :b3: threatens :b5:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Position A. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But with the ogeima enclosure, the problem with :b1: is that :w2: is a good extension, because of the weakness of the enclosure.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Position A. Reduction?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 3 O 6 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . W 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black would like to reduce with :b1: - :b5:. However, White will surely not play :w6:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Position A. Pincer?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Another human idea is to approach the enclosure with :b1:, because of its weakness. OC, White is likely to pincer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Position A. Light reduction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Another reducing play, which seems to have escaped notice by humans, is :b1:. Then if :w2:, :b3: has help from :b1:. My guess is that at least one bot will play :b1:, but it will not be the human play, nor will it be the unanimous bot choice.

_________________
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— Winona Adkins

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 Post subject: Re: 501 Opening Problems and a committee of AIs
Post #11 Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:04 am 
Gosei
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LZ on position 1 (3000 playouts)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position A. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . O 8 . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 6 5 9 , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . 0 7 c . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


LZ surprisingly finds most potential in playing a move where White is already strong. The idea is probably to overconcentrate White in that corner and influence the rest of the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position A. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 6 . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Bill's textbook move is 1% worse by my LZ setup and results in a fairly peaceful sequence

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position A. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 O 6 . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a 4 1 2 . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


LZ sees a lot of possible starting moves in the upper left. One of the leaning moves suggested here is her 3rd choice. Black can fight at A next.


On position 3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position C. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 1 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No surprises here


On position 4

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position D. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . 8 3 4 a . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . O 0 5 2 7 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


LZ wants to actively defend the lower left. She thinks Black's ahead.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: 501 Opening Problems and a committee of AIs
Post #12 Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:48 am 
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Position A: my results.

Note: I'm not in any way saying that this is the "right" answer. I'm just an amateur player messing about with software that I only partly understand. Others may run different hardware/software/settings combinations and get different results. And I'm very happy for the stronger players on this board to critique my reasoning and interpretation.

Position A is problem 1 from the book. (No, position B is not problem 2!) "Obviously" we're meant to play around the middle of the right side. But where exactly? Low or high? At the midpoint, or can you afford to stretch a bit further? And is there anything interesting to do in the top left?

Here are some candidate moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position A. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . e . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . b a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . f . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The book answer is 'a'. The book tends not to go in for long explanations, so there is no discussion of 'a' versus 'b', 'c' or 'd'. To me, playing half way between the black and white positions just feels right, although I can't say why. I'm guessing low rather than high because it feels like you can turn the area in front of the shimari into territory.

Four out of six bots chose 'b'. The other two suggested 'e' instead.

Specifically:
  • LZ-242 preferred 'b' (42.6% winrate, 10k playouts), with 'e' in second place (42.5% winrate, 2.3k playouts).
  • For LZ-ELF, 'b' was the only move seriously considered (ignoring things with only a few hundred playouts) but was more optimistic, with a winrate of 47.3%, 20k playouts.
  • GX47 chose 'b' (47.5%, 22k playouts) but with 'e' as a close second (47.5%, 8.9k) and had 'a' not too far behind (46.1%, 4.8k).
  • KataGo chose 'e' (45.5%, 10k, score -1.1), followed by 'a' (44.4%, 1.8k, -1.5) then 'b' (44.1%, 1.5k, -1.6) and 'c' (44.9%, 1.3k, -1.3).
  • AQ chose 'a' (48.9%, 152k) followed by 'b' (49.6%, 69k) and 'c' (48.9%, 20k).
  • Ray chose 'e' (46.5%, 124k) followed by 'b' (44.2%, 26k) and 'f' (45.7%, 12k)
  • Noone chose 'd'. If 'b' and 'c' are playable, then why not 'd'?

This was with about a minute of thinking time for each engine.

Can we get any insights into the choices by looking at followup moves? Here are some sequences with KataGo evaluations (including people's suggestions above). It's interesting to see that some of the human-suggested moves are evaluated as pretty close to the bot moves, yet the bots don't explore them without prompting.



The invasion at 'e' seems to end in sente, so black still gets to play on the right first (but would you get the same answer if a different AI played it out?) I'd been wondering if top left and middle right were miai, but it appears not. When black plays in the middle right, white replies with O16 (but the continuations vary according to black's choice among 'a' through 'd').

The book move at 'a' looks about as good as 'e' when analysed in more depth. Black doesn't get territory in front of the shimari though, it turns into an interesting trade.

Finally, just for fun, I changed the shape of the bottom right shimari, and found that this does indeed change KataGo's preferred moves on the right (although the top left is still favourite).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position A, alternate reality.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


  • 'a': 47.0% winrate, 10k playouts, score -0.4
  • 'b': 46.7% winrate, 1.8k playouts, score -0.5
  • 'c': 46.0% winrate, 3.8k playouts, score -0.8


Attachments:
001.sgf [3.31 KiB]
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Last edited by xela on Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #13 Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:54 am 
Lives in gote

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Uberdude wrote:
B: Class 1 but becomes class 3 with meta-reasoning.
Pretty sure book wants to hane at head of 2 with a, and would have thought all bots would agree, but given xela selected this position as interesting I guess at least one of them doesn't want to play it, but probably most do. Or maybe he did want to include a unanimous agreement one as an example!


Have you by any chance been watching (or reading) The Princess Bride?

I'll get to this in a day or two, sorry to keep you in suspense!

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Post #14 Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:10 am 
Gosei
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KGS: Artevelde
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LZ's variations on Position A, with my own comments (she speaks in sequences only)



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Post #15 Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:29 am 
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xela wrote:
It's interesting to see that some of the human-suggested moves are evaluated as pretty close to the bot moves, yet the bots don't explore them without prompting.


Path dependency in learning, both in human and bots. The human learning is cultural, as it takes place over many lifetimes.

One interesting thing is how close different alternatives are in winrate. We can't really say that one move is better than another. Ono of those moves, that is. Unlike some amateurs claim, the opening does matter. :)

Edit: It seems to me that bots frequently make high extensions, particularly long ones. Probably for them those long extensions are not really territorial moves.

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #16 Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:41 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
LZ's variations on Position A, with my own comments (she speaks in sequences only)



Interesting that my "bot special" reduction got no first choice votes. Lizzie considered it but gave it only 129 playouts. With so few playouts I would not trust the winrate estimate. What happens when you force the play? (It will inherit the winrate estimate from Lizzie's top reply. That's what the Elf team did when a move got fewer than 500 playouts. :))

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Post #17 Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:51 pm 
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Position B: my results.

Uberdude had this right. Hane at the head of two stones is "the only move". What got me interested is the fact that this is the only one of problems 1-20 where the book gives follow-up sequences, rather than just "here is the key move". And the bots' follow-ups are quite different from the book's!

Position B is problem 9 from the book. I think for most human players, the bottom right is a very "hot" position. It's hard to imagine ignoring it (although Knotwilg's imagination is clearly better than mine!) and it's hard to imagine playing a single move there followed by tenuki for either player. But the bots see it differently. Here are the three main variations.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c "These are the standard moves"
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O O 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 4 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This (above) is the recommended follow-up from the book. (But can black get away with the double hane at 'a'? KataGo thinks yes, although the difference in evaluation is minimal.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White can't cut
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 2 X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . 4 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 5 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is the book sequence to show why :w2: is bad. KataGo prefers 'a' for :b3:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c AI alternative
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X 2 a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Five out of six bots say white should continue at :w2: (AQ gives this as second choice after the book line.) Then in most cases black replies at 'a', and white's next move is elsewhere. Variations and evaluations:



Attachments:
009-variations.sgf [1.96 KiB]
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Post #18 Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:31 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Two step hane, crawling on the 5th line
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . a 1 O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I also expected unanimity for :b1:. :) However, I anticipated this as the typical bot sequence. :oops: Before the bot era I, like the book, would have extended to a rather than play the two step hane. Not because of any tactical problem with it, but because :w4: would not only be crawling on the 5th line :shock: , but also would make :wc: look better. Without :w4: :wc: looks a little too far from the White wall, such as it is. However, the bots don't seem to mind forcing their opponent to crawl along the 5th line, making territory in the process, they prefer their outside strength on the 6th line, even with a possible cut at a or b. This is one example of why I do not say that the bots are territorial. ;)

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Post #19 Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:25 am 
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Position C: my results.

Position C is problem 12 from the book. Here the issue is how to reduce white's moyo at the bottom.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Position C. Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . c b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The book answer is 'a'. But the bots are unanimous: 'b' is better. As far as I can tell, the reason is that 'a' is not forceful enough. The book suggests that if Black 'a' then White 'c'. But the bots say no, white can tenuki and invade the top right. On the other hand, if Black 'b' then the bots recommend that white should answer locally.



Attachments:
012-variations.sgf [1.2 KiB]
Downloaded 145 times

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Post #20 Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:43 am 
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For C, I am surprised that the book play is not the same as that of the bots. There is even a proverb about it. :o (I expected that at least one bot might pick the book play, though. ;)) The bot play lies within only one sector line, but it is from the distant stone on O-03, so arguably it does not count.

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