Life In 19x19http://lifein19x19.com/ How is your positional judgement? Game 25http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17106 Page 1 of 1

 Author: Bill Spight [ Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:45 pm ] Post subject: How is your positional judgement? Game 25 Game 25After Elf estimates the winrate for one player as 88½% with 43.4k playouts. Which player is it? Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bcm27 Black to play\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . X . O , O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . X . . . . O . . . . . O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . X . . O , X . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]`Enjoy!

 Author: Knotwilg [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:42 am ] Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25 White has more control over the corners, while Black seems to have been forced at the bottom. This looks like one of those ancient games with preset handicap.

 Author: Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:42 am ] Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25 According to my reading, black is dead in the lower right even with sente. Add to that the fact that white has the first 3-3 point, and a computer will think that white is ahead.I'm not saying that white is better here, I'm saying that Elf thinks that white is better.

 Author: Kirby [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:06 am ] Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25 This game looks weird.After reading some of uberdude’s analyses, I’ve come to like the idea of analyzing which side has made more mistakes.Here, it looks like black has been playing more “weird”, especially in the bottom left.So I think white is leading.

 Author: Tryss [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:20 pm ] Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25 Knotwilg wrote:White has more control over the corners, while Black seems to have been forced at the bottom. This looks like one of those ancient games with preset handicap.Looks like a shin fuseki game, with an early tengenBut yeah, I also prefer white

 Author: Knotwilg [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:25 pm ] Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25 LZ:White is ahead

 Author: John Tilley [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:32 pm ] Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25 Bill - I flipped through a book and found this game in a couple of minutes - . Keep up with these studies - even though I recognise/guess some of the games, they are scary and thought provoking!

 Author: Bill Spight [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:55 pm ] Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25 @TilleyJohn Tilley wrote:Bill - I flipped through a book and found this game in a couple of minutes - . Keep up with these studies - even though I recognise/guess some of the games, they are scary and thought provoking!A spooky game, yes. As I was replaying games in the Elf commentaries, I remembered this game, both from a recent book and from my kyu days. I can't say I learned anything from it then, but it made quite an impression on me at the time.

 Author: bayu [ Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:03 pm ] Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25 First I thought it's an ancient game, but then there should be a diagonal opening not a parallel one. Shinfuseki with probably on tengen.So, was tengen worth it? If I were black I'd hope for some weak white groups to chase around or some ladder business going on with tengen as the universal ladder breaker/enabler. I don't see neither. Can black arrange something like this with its next move? White's lonely L6-stone was answered on the inside by black K5, so the white stone can be sacrificed. I see no way to provoke a weak white group. The black right is too weak to live and cut something off. The moyo at the upper right has too many entry points for my taste and an open 3-3, so that I expect white to go in at the 3-3 and then reduce the resulting moyo from the outside, againg not ending up with a chasable group. Black can invade the upper left corner, but with the white stone at G16 I don't think that white's wall can end up being a weak group. That's my kyu vision. Happy taking white and claiming to have thwarted black's tengen opening.And thanks Bill for staging this series! I highly appreciate it.

 Author: xela [ Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:28 am ] Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25 White, but not for any clear and good reason. Black's position just feels incoherent to me. I have no idea what I'd do next as black. Reminds me a little of the pre-AlphaGo MCTS bots.

 Author: Bill Spight [ Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:49 pm ] Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 25 Discussion of Elf's commentary on Game 25This is a New Fuseki game, GoGoD 1934-01-30a, between Go Seigen (W) and Kitani Minoru, the two stars of the New Fuseki. After Elf estimates the winrate for one player as 88½% with 43.4k playouts. Which player is it? White. And White won the no komi game. Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bcm27 White is ahead\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . X . O , O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . X . . . . O . . . . . O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . X . . O , X . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]`The play was experimental. Today it is no surprise that White is ahead, as Black has made more high flying moves than White. But that was by no means obvious at the time.Elf's mainline continuation of the game Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bcm27 Fight in the bottom right corner\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . X . O , O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . X . . . . O . . . . 0 O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O 9 . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . X . . O , X . . . . X . 8 . |\$\$ | . . O X 1 . . . . . . . O . O 3 . . . |\$\$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . X . . . 4 7 . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` pulls back, and secures the bottom left corner. Then starts a fight in the bottom right corner. Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bcm37 Black breaks out, White breaks in\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . X . O , O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . X . . . . O . b . 9 O O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . X 8 . . 3 O X . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . X . 0 O 6 X . . . 1 X . O . |\$\$ | . . O X X . . a 7 5 4 2 O . O X . . . |\$\$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . O X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` at a, at b pushes through the gap in White's wall. strengthens his group and peeps at Black's one space jump. breaks out with atari on the one stone. Then White pushes into Black's position on the bottom side. makes a ponnuki and the battle continues.Earlier in the game Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bc Errors on the 10th rank\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , 7 . . . . 5 . . 9 . 6 , 8 . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]`The game starts off, nirensei vs. nirensei, then plays tengen. No surprise, Elf regards that as an error, losing 10% to par. is not as bad, losing only 8½% to par, according to Elf. But then is the worst play so far, losing 17%. Then loses 13½%, and loses 18%. Elf's mainline variation for Even if you recognize , tengen, as a mistake, how do you play against the Black position? Why, you make a 3-3 invasion, of course. (Elf regards the approach at a to be only 1% worse, well within the margin of error. ) Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Wcm6 Invasions\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . a . 2 1 . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 3 . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 7 . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]`As usual, blocks on the "wrong" side. (The block at is only 0.2% worse.) After a modern joseki, invades the top left corner.Elf's mainline variation for Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bcm7 Two step hane\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . O , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . 5 4 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . 0 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` invades a corner. White blocks and then plays a two step hane to take the corner. The block on the bottom side may be preferable to forestall a Black sphere of influence on the bottom. Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bcm17 Black sphere of influence\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . W , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | 1 O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . O X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . 2 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` fits with the human concept of direction of play. returns to the bottom left to build a wall for Black's sphere of influence. Then the approach, , works with the stone.Elf's mainline for Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Wcm8 Right side moyo\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . e 0 c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . a 9 8 d 6 . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O b . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . W , . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]`Elf picks the same approach for , and makes the symmetrical approach with , creating a right side moyo. encloses the bottom left corner, then approaches the top left corner from the top side, again in line with human direction of play. plays the jump attachment. pulls back at a, and then Bb - We follow.Elf's mainline for certainly looks questionable. Not only is it high, it approaches a reasonably strong White position. Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bcm9 Black moyo\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . O , O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O 7 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . 6 4 3 9 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . 0 5 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` approaches the bottom left corner and then follows the same jump attachment joseki as in the previous diagram. Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bcm29 Black moyo, continued\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O X . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . . . O , O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]`Then the same joseki follows in the top left corner, and then completes a nice Black moyo in the top side and center.Game continuation Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Wcm10 Minor errors\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . c . O . . 3 . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . X . O , O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . . . 1 , 6 . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 e . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` may be OK. Elf prefers the approach at by 4%, on the edge of Elf's margin of error. loses 5½% to par. Elf prefers the approach at a. loses 6½% to par. Elf prefers a for it, as well. loses 8% to par. Elf prefers the approach at b. Then, assuming that White replies at c, the approach at d to create a moyo on the left side. also loses 8% to par. Elf prefers the now standard keima at e. invades the thin Black position on the bottom side. cuts the invader off.Game continuation Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Wcm18 Bottom side fighting, with errors\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . X . O , O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . a . d 1 . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . 2 . . O , X . . c b X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 5 . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` is literally a Go Seigen 5th line shoulder blow. Elf has a mere 1% preference for the shoulder blow at a. loses 7%. Elf prefers the push and cut, Bb - Bd in the bottom right corner. The boshi, , loses 7½% to the block at b. loses 6%. Elf prefers the kosumi at 22. loses 6½%. I'll make a diagram for Elf's variation for it, as this one is getting crowded. Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Wcm22 Elf's variation for \$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . X . O , O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . O 7 . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . 5 . W . 6 . . |\$\$ | . . . O . X . . O , X . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . W . 8 . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . a . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]`The one space jump, , works with the stones. Then Black stakes out the corner with and , threatening a.Game continuation Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Wcm22 Game continuation, with errors\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . X . O , O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . 3 . 2 . . . . O . . . . . O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . X . . O , X . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . 5 4 . b . . . . . . O . O a . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` is a definite error, losing 12% to par. Elf prefers to play in the bottom right corner at a. (Diagram to follow.) is a minor error losing 4½%. Elf prefers to attach underneath at b.Elf's mainline variation for Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bcm23 Mainline for \$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . X . O , O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . 6 O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . 9 O 5 . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . X . . O , X . . . 7 X . 4 . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 O . O 1 . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . 2 3 . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` - in the bottom right follows the same course as in a previous diagram. Click Here To Show Diagram Code`[go]\$\$Bcm33 Mainline for , continued\$\$ ---------------------------------------\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . . O . . X . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . , X . . . . X . . X . O , O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . O . . . 1 O O . . |\$\$ | . 4 . . . . . . . X . . . X O X . . . |\$\$ | . . . O . X . . O , X . . . X X . O . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . O O O . O X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O X . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ ---------------------------------------[/go]` breaks out, breaks in. plays a double approach to the bottom left corner, and defends the corner with a footsweep.To me the Elf commentary underscores how experimental the New Fuseki was. Even Kitani and Go Seigen were feeling their way along.

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