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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: How is your positional judgement? Game 27
Post #1 Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:28 pm 
Honinbo

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Game 27

After :b27: the Elf commentaries, assuming area scoring and a 7½ pt. komi, give one player a winrate estimate of 88½% with 29.6k rollouts. Which player is it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27 White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . . . O O . O X . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :D

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Offline TelegraphGo
 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 27
Post #2 Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:58 am 
Lives with ko

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Universal go server handle: telegraphgo
I pick black. Immediately, white has to take gote making the top group not die, and it's not going to be pretty - black still will have a local advantage in efficiency.
After that, we can compare the bottom left with the bottom right - 3 against 1 for each side, who has it better?

Black has it better. Black will get sente to play in the bottom right. After that, the one white stone on the side at R10 can still be put under pressure, due to the black thickness on the top. That's different from the left side - the one black stone at C9 cannot be put under pressure in the same way, because white is still weak nearby. You can't attack if you're weak.

The last difference is in the upper left - whose stone are more efficient? Black's, by far. W's weakness will come back to bite him later. So black is obviously ahead on board. Is black ahead by more than komi? I say heck yeah. I'm doubling down - I can't even spot any major inefficiencies for B, from a game reconstruction standpoint.
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Offline Knotwilg
 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 27
Post #3 Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . . 5 O O 3 O X . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . X a X 2 1 X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . c O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I doubt about many things

- Should White play :w5: immediately?
- How important is A locally? And B?
- Is :b6: indeed the biggest point on the board after settling the upper right?
- More in particular: how important is C?
- And how painful is D?
- Who is ahead?

First I thought: Black has the better position. But then I didn't see how he's overcoming the komi. And he really needs to spend another move in the upper left to stabilize.

So I go White, but very hesitantly so.


Edit: still without LZ

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . . 5 O O 3 O X . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . X 6 X 2 1 X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , W . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . c O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If we add the exchange of :b6: - :w7: as here, then Black's inefficiency comes to light. The marked White stone is negating his influence and there's a peep at A.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . a . X . 0 . . O . . . O O O O O X . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . X 2 X X O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . 6 4 3 . . X X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . 9 . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is then a better result for Black. But White gets back the initiative to enlarge the top with :w10: while threatening to clamp at A.


Edit: with LZ now. She agrees with my evaluation of my selected moves. But she disagrees with my move selection:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . . . O O . O X . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . X . X . 1 X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . c O . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


LZ answers :w1: with :b2: and gives Black a firm advantage.
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Offline xela
 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement? Game 27
Post #4 Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:09 pm 
Lives in gote

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Hmm, I keep flip-flopping on this one.
Currently leaning towards black. First guess was white because my feeble human intuition says that white can take the last big point of the fuseki on the lower side. But we've had enough arguments about that recently!

On a closer look, I think N17 is urgent, and the top is about to turn into a big mess that will favour black. Overall white's stones look superficially more efficient, but a bit thin.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . 2 1 O O . O X . |
$$ | . X . , . . . . . , . X 3 X . , X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . 5 4 . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Not sure what happens next from here, but I think black's thickness at the top left (*) will come in to play.

(*) And these days I'm also quite nervous about using words like thickness or influence...
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