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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Under the radar
Post #1 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:25 am 
Gosei

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While watching one of BadukDoctor's videos, Katago suggested me to take a closer look at this shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . X . . . X X X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O O X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------+[/go]


The shape is a continuation of this joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . X X . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------+[/go]
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #2 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:27 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
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Let us take this postion from a pro game as a reference:

Yu Zhengqi, 7d - Shida Tatsuya, 7d, W+1.5 (Komi 6.5)
62nd NHK Cup, Round 1, 2014-03-03

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . X O X O . X . X X X O . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O X O . . X X O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X O O O O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . X . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #3 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:31 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
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The pros play all the time this continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . X O X O . X . X X X O . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O X O . . X X O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X O O O O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . X . . . X X X O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #4 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:34 am 
Gosei

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But now take note of the strong white positions on the outside of the shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . X O X O . X . X X X O . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O X O . . X X Q X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X O O O O O . . . Q . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . Q . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . . . |
$$ | . Q . Q . . . . . X . . . X X X Q . . |
$$ | . . . . . Q . . . . . . . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #5 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:37 am 
Gosei

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White can surprise black with this alternative if there is such strong support on the outside.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . X O X O . X . X X X O . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O X O . . X X O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X O O O O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . X . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Attachment:
alt.JPG
alt.JPG [ 78.5 KiB | Viewed 5573 times ]

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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #6 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:41 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
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Example continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . X O X O . X . X X X O . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O X O . . X X O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X O O O O O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . X . 7 . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 5 4 O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Attachment:
alt2.JPG
alt2.JPG [ 79.33 KiB | Viewed 5570 times ]

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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #7 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:45 am 
Gosei

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Just be careful. The usefullness of this alternative move depends a lot on the surrounding position.
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #8 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:50 am 
Gosei

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In this game by Baduk Doctor the move would have been a good alternative too (7:24 in the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Rb25T ... e=youtu.be

Attachment:
alt3.JPG
alt3.JPG [ 74.89 KiB | Viewed 5555 times ]


Last edited by Gomoto on Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Uberdude
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #9 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:53 am 
Judan

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Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Gomoto wrote:
The pros play all the time this continuation:


Not all, there was a Go Seigen game in one of JF's books where they (can't recall if Go or opponent, but probably Go) had the hane resistance, or at least it was talked about in the commentary. But yes, it is an alternative we shouldn't neglect to consider, and pros probably do suffer from too much autopilot. However, there could be a selection bias in that if the hane is a good resistance and black is aware of that he won't cut in the corner but immediately play the 2nd line descent.

This post by Uberdude was liked by: Gomoto
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #10 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:00 am 
Gosei

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Good old Go Seigen, always a pleasure to meet him again.
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #11 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:02 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
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Two continuations:

Attachment:
alt4.JPG
alt4.JPG [ 75.42 KiB | Viewed 5557 times ]


Attachment:
alt5.JPG
alt5.JPG [ 75.36 KiB | Viewed 5556 times ]

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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #12 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:06 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
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Just to be clear. My intention is not at all to disrespect the Pros. I just post because I like unusual moves. A usual move would be of less interest to me, as it is already widely known.
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Offline ez4u
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #13 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:12 am 
Oza
User avatar

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The earliest example in GoGoD, B+R.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Zhou Pingqiang (White) - Lin Zhihan Taiwan Guoshou League 2007-07-24
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 0 . O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 5 . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . X O X 4 . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . X 9 X O X 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

This post by ez4u was liked by: Gomoto
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Offline Gomoto
 Post subject: Re: Under the radar
Post #14 Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:36 am 
Gosei

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In my 105.000 game database there are two more games with this move and the 4th line expansion (and 3 with the third line expansion).
This is one of them:

Fan Tingyu 9d - Motoki Katsuya 8d, W+Resign (Komi 6.5)
20th Nongshim Cup, Game 4, 2018-10-19

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . X . , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . X X . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . X . O X . X O . . . . X . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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