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The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
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Author:  dany [ Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Shin Jinseo (Black) vs. Park Geunho (White) http://go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/110919

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . a O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black did not find the best answer and made a move to "a"
Author:  pwaldron [ Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X b . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . a O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Looks like b picks up an extra liberty to win the capturing race.
Author:  jlt [ Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Just Q12? If White plays Q18 or Q19 next then Black O19.
Author:  kvasir [ Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Maybe I figured it out?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . 1 X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:b1: was what I thought it was but I didn't post because it didn't look much better than removing a liberty. Now I think :b3: is the key to get it to work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Black wins capturing race.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 1 3 X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Resistance is futile.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 O 6 3 5 X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c It is really forced, right?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 3 1 X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Author:  dany [ Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
pwaldron wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X b . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . a O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Looks like b picks up an extra liberty to win the capturing race.


Yes
Author:  dany [ Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
jlt wrote:
Just Q12? If White plays Q18 or Q19 next then Black O19.


Yes
Author:  dany [ Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
kvasir wrote:
Maybe I figured it out?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . 1 X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:b1: was what I thought it was but I didn't post because it didn't look much better than removing a liberty. Now I think :b3: is the key to get it to work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Black wins capturing race.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 1 3 X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Resistance is futile.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 O 6 3 5 X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c It is really forced, right?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 3 1 X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . O O X O O O X X |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X X X O X X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Great idea! And the best black response. Black +30 (the last diagram)
Author:  Kirby [ Sun Sep 10, 2023 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
I was told that this was an error in the move order of transcribing of the game. Apparently, after white P9 in the game, B L17, W T14, B T17, W Q19 was the order actually played in the game.
Author:  dany [ Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Kirby wrote:
I was told that this was an error in the move order of transcribing of the game. Apparently, after white P9 in the game, B L17, W T14, B T17, W Q19 was the order actually played in the game.


Actually, there was an error in the game record.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AagL0YHjtpc&t=2194s
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
A somewhat different aspect. The Japanese Ryusei uses 30s/move + 10x1m. The Korean Ryusei (this Yongseong) uses 30 min each play 20s Fischer increment.

How do the two systems compare when it comes to tricky capturing races like this?
Author:  jlt [ Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Assuming it's a game with 240 moves and both players use all their time, both last at most 140 minutes. However, players at the Ryusei competition probably move many times before 30 seconds so the Yongseong looks more comfortable. Anyway in the mentioned game, both players had more that 20 minutes left on their clock.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Tue Sep 12, 2023 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The blunder in Korean Yongseong, final 2
Just tidying up the latest GoGoD update for SmartGo, I noticed something that does not seem to have been mentioned yet.

The capturing race that features in the game here (Pak v Sin) appeared previously (2023-07-28) in the 3rd Korean Women's Strongest (Losers' Section Final) beyween O Yu-chin and Kim Eun-chi. It would appear that it already has something akin to joseki status!
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