B's framework looks better than w's because of the completed shimari. W's compensation is... a stronger lower left? A bit of aji at r14? Blacks plan is to increase his advantage by expanding his framework. I like n 14. White could get some solid cash by playing at k17, but that looks submissive. W does however need to get in a move on the top before b plays m16, so I think w plays a sente move elsewhere, also to expand his framework. I think h4 fits the bill.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 2 O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . 3 O . . |
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$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 0 . 7 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Lots of options... if I'm black I'd probably play a move up top, either at C15, D15 or G15. If the move is surprising, I would say a pro would want to remove the aji of R14, but it seems to early and hard to remove in one shot. Maybe C3-D3 instead, as white made a bigger enclosure than normal. Of course black could play for the center and have lots of moves.. This is really very open and it could be anything...

W probably wants to p5, so maybe b will do that, then w n14 is probably the interface of 2 moyos.

This move is almost always bad, it just forces black to fix his H3 weakness whilst leaving white with a stone that needs connecting to something. The normal shape is G5, I think, which at least leaves more aji whilst achieving the same thing.

Black has a bit of a framework, but it has plenty of holes in, so I don't think there will be a framework-only move like N14 or tengen area. If black wants to play this way, I would expect something subtler, like D10 or E10, as a probe to see how white will respond whilst keeping an eye on taking the centre.

P5 seems like a good point for reduction, but black playing there seems quite slow, as there is still aji at R14 and H3. So I don't think black will play in the lower right at all.

It isn't obvious to me that C3 is a bad point (answered by D3, of course), but it also isn't obvious that it is the move to play.

This leaves the top area, which black might like to get into (although, on the other hand, white has no single move to finish it off).


So overall I have 2 predictions that I can't choose between:
- C3,D3: Normal, solid moves that take territory and keep the game open (as far as I can see).
- D10, E10, maybe D15: Moves aiming to see how white responds, press white down a bit, and build a little strength in order to strengthen a hold on the centre.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 0 . . . . 2 O 1 9 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess what daal hopes is to separate the two black stones but it is important to note that black H3 connects them easily (for example Bh3-Wj3-Bj4-Wg3-Bh2-Wg2-Bg4-Wh5-Bf2). Then that stone at H4 remains almost completely useless. An invasion there could at H3 but this is perhaps not yet the rigth timing.

Would a 3-3 invasion at the lower left not weaken the black formation at the bottom? I don't know maybe it is the normal move but I cannot help asking myself whether the damage on the bottom formation is not bigger than the corner. Or was it the initial intention of black 15, either to take the corner or build a moyo at the bottom (like a probe maybe)???

It does weaken the bottom, but is also big. I think it is probably (but only probably ) reasonable for a player aiming at a territorial game - white still needs to reduce black's framework if he's worried about it, and in the meantime black can run amok in white's territory. In this kind of game, neither player has to actively develop a moyo shape, but both players might instead work to destroy the opponent's territories. I don't know if this is even a good idea here, but it seems okay to me.

Also, I didn't consider DrStraw's moves at all in my analysis, but I find his 19 (and probably 20) extremely reasonable in addition to my previous guesses. They do have a professional 'fixing the shape' feel to them.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . 9 . 0 . . . . . . 2 O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . a . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Why is this right, globally and locally? Well, aren't you supposed to approach from the wider side?

As for being right, as far as I know, "a" is right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm21
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 4 5 . 8 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . . 3 O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

kidding Of course, they look like ridiculously strange moves, at least also to me. I don't think anybody can explain these moves with "reading". What the hell do you need to read for playing 19? Is it this "haengma" thing that indicates such moves, or do they come just out of the blue?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X d . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . c . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It kind of helps simultaneously against the aji of all these, particularly a-c, and White could choose to play any of them. However, I wanted to ask because I'd never have played it, and it looks like none of our dan players would either. What is it exactly these pro players know ?

There is the separate point here that moves are only opinions, and even professionals disagree with one another. Black follows through a strong moyo plan here, but I don't believe it is the only move available.

Your aji reduction conclusion seems like a good one to me. Black neither plays the ubermoyo move at N14, nor the conservative move P5, both of which I thought (and still think) were bad. I didn't consider that black would go for a middle-ground move, it is hard to read and risky, and thereby unusual. I'm not sure there is anything incredibly special about the move, other than it being an unusual strategy in this situation, and therefore interesting to study the implications of. then again, maybe that counts as 'incredibly special'


I would be interested to see professional commentary of this game.

I agree with you, but not only would I not have thought of it, if a weaker player had played it I would probably have described at as a poor move that doesn't quite do enough of anything. The pro commentary with the game didn't even comment on it, the first comment was where it said "Gu Li separates strongly" or something to that effect. It makes me wonder what exactly the pro had read that he felt that was bigger than anything else on the board. It goes against the corners -> sides -> center philosophy, it feels like a very loose move, it doesn't really feel big compared to the top left corner.

Also, if Black has decided to go for moyo game, why is that bigger than the top left in his opinion, what aspects of the board make him feel that way? And why exactly this move to achieve it, not a move on the border of two moyos (like :21: ) which is the sort of thing I expect.

Bill's comment was the opponent's move is my own, which I agree with, but that's often when there's some urgency there. For example, the timing to do it because your opponent is just about to play there, and likewise, to me at least, the top left still felt bigger than reducing even from White's perspective.

What makes me interested is that not one of the players on here even suggested a move like that (although stable's was close), and that I find interesting in itself.

I may do something along these lines for my next pop-quiz guessing thread