4-4 Joseki/position question for study.

Apoah · #1

Hi All,

This is my first post and I hope to be an active member. The following is from a recent game. I feel that white 9 is wrong. I replied at X but feel there may have been a better reply. What are you thoughts on this position?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------- | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------[/go]

amnal · #2

Apoah wrote:

Hi All,

This is my first post and I hope to be an active member. The following is from a recent game. I feel that white 9 is wrong. I replied at X but feel there may have been a better reply. What are you thoughts on this position?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------- | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -------------------[/go]

Black 9 is certainly not normal. The reason is, it is a building move with no foundations - this kind of building usually just falls down. If you fancy it, you can easily play a wedge or similar on that side now, and it will not be obvious how white's influence play is helping him.

You won't get a bad result by tenukiing - The worst black can do is make a normal shape on the side, giving you 2 moves elsewhere. Playing x like you did seems solid but slow. This way is disappointing if there is a way to take advantage of black's move, but wouldn't be game losing.

I checked pro games for this shape out of interest (though obviously it doesn't occur much). In the games most similar to this one, the peep at black's jump was popular. I believe this is because black can aim to immediately take advantage of black's shape to make a group on the side and leave white in bad shape. This seems worth a try if you fancy there playing straight away.

Joaz Banbeck · #3

To answer that, we should ask ourselves why it is wrong.

We could answer with the unimaginative, rote-memory reply of: "joseki is I3, therefore anything else is bad". Or we could be more oriented toward priciples and proverbs, and not that getting eye space for a group early is a good thing, especially when the group is 60% of the stones that one has on the board. Either way, we know that he should have played I3 or nearby.

There is a proverb that says that "the enemy's good point is also mine." If it is good for him, it is good for me. The logic therein is obvious: if I take it, I prevent him from doing so. In other words, we want to play this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . 5 . . W . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------[/go]

Amnal's comment about the peep suggests that we could also play it high, and if white tries the classic joseki, we get to wall him in, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . W . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . 3 1 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |--------------------------------[/go]

...because 3 cannot go the other way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 4 . W . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . 6 1 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |--------------------------------[/go]

Apoah · #4

Thanks for your replies. It is helpful to know that my instincts were right and I shouldn't have been afraid to play on the other side.

Joaz Banbeck · #5

BTW, it might be a good play if black had massive strength in the lower left, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ |------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . 3 . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . 1 . 2 . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |--------------------------------[/go]

...in which case white cannot play on the lower side without getting in trouble.

topazg · #6

I think Black can get more than Joaz's suggestion of sliding underneath, although that is a solid corner joseki. For me, the following both look fine for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . 6 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 4 , . 7 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------------------------[/go]

feels thin, but it's connectivity isn't important. "a" and "b" aren't going away, so the purpose is to make White uncomfortable and play to seal. :b7:

in the second dia works nicely from the lower right, and I'd treat it the same as the common pincer "mistake":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . 3 . . a . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 1 . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , X . . W . , 9 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 6 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------------------------[/go]

After "a", White is considered to have a bad result IIRC.

It feels like White should be able to punish it a bit, and I think going too close to Black's stones risks ending up too close to thickness. What would I do instead?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . X . b . . 4 . . a . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------------------------[/go]

"a" and "b" are miai, and I feel Black cannot pressure White, so 3 has become purposeless:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . 2 . . O . 1 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------------------------[/go]

Black still has to fear the 3-3 invasion in the lower right, and now has a weak running scared group. White is mostly settled already.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . 1 . O . . 2 . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------------------------[/go]

Feels fine in this latest diagram, but the original jump out now just looks small and ineffective, giving Black an inefficient feel. Moreover, :w2:

and

settle White nicely with some points in sente, and give White the initiative to approach the next corner.

Apoah · #7

Does A represent any significant weakness for White?

A is C8.

I don't know why, but I can't get the go diagram to work. I copied Graham's code but it just made a blank page. Maybe this is a common mistake I am making that someone can point out?

topazg · #8

Weakness? Yes. Significant? A little, but less so with a White stone in the top left (as Black taking it doesn't also threaten to build a moyo).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 6 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . O . . . . O , . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------------------------[/go]

that's the bad aji threat, so it's not insignificant...

(Try to post an image, and if it doesn't work, I can try to have a look at what you didn't do right. The "show diagram code" should give you exactly what you need, so I don't know why it didn't work)

Kirby · #9

In my opinion, it is OK to wait to see what you want to do on the bottom side, until the game develops more. The board is very open, and you don't know what will happen everywhere else.

You don't have to dive into the bottom immediately, I think.

EDIT: The good thing about waiting is that you can play appropriately, based on how the game changes. Since the bottom doesn't seem urgent to me, it seems better to wait.

Dusk Eagle · **#10**

Apoah, sometimes when you copy a Go Diagram it gets indented when you paste. This causes the Go diagrams to fail. This is probably your problem. When highlighting the text of a Go diagram, make sure not to select any further than the '[' in the [go] tag, and it should work. Alternatively, it seems to work better if you click "Post a reply", then scroll to the bottom of the page where it says "Topic review" and copy-paste a diagram from there.

Apoah · **#11**

topazg wrote:

Weakness? Yes. Significant? A little, but less so with a White stone in the top left (as Black taking it doesn't also threaten to build a moyo).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 6 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . O . . . . O , . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . 4 O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------------------------[/go]

that's the bad aji threat, so it's not insignificant...

(Try to post an image, and if it doesn't work, I can try to have a look at what you didn't do right. The "show diagram code" should give you exactly what you need, so I don't know why it didn't work)

So w is dead here?

Harleqin · **#12**

Apoah wrote:

So w is dead here?

He is in trouble, but that sequence is not forced. I think that splitting the lower side is better at L3. Anyway, White can always answer :bc:

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ |------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . W . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------------------------[/go]

It is not clear whether :bc:

or

is bigger, so White should not fear this. You can say that :w1:

and an extension to the side are miai.

mitsun · **#13**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

...There is a proverb that says that "the enemy's good point is also mine." If it is good for him, it is good for me. The logic therein is obvious: if I take it, I prevent him from doing so. In other words, we want to play this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ |------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . b . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . 5 . . W . . a . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------[/go]

I don't think the suggested W move is a good answer to the B jump. B will be happy to attack somewhere around a, preventing the W stone from making a base. If W then jumps to b, we get a running fight, and it is not clear who is ahead. Perhaps more important, the B stone at F5 looks well placed for this fight.

A better strategy I think is to try to make the stone at F5 become inefficient. W can make a more distant approach, letting B make a narrow base if he wants. For example,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ |------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 5 . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . 2 . 1 . . 3 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------[/go]

If B plays like this, the stone at F5 seems redundant and inefficient. The W position is not ideal either, but he has broken up the lower side and has sente, so I think W can be satisfied with this result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ |------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . X . 3 . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ |-------------------[/go]

B could also approach from the other side, but then W gets a comfortable base, and again the B position looks awkward.

I don't think any of these continuations constitute a clear refutation of the joseki mistake, so W could also ignore the bottom side for now. It does not look like B has a follow up which W has to worry about.

4-4 Joseki/position question for study.

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