Hello, recently I've taken to playing on tygem and this move occurs in alot of my games. I've created an example of how the move might occur below.



I don't know how to handle it. If I enter 3-3 to try and make sabaki my opponent makes alot of influence as if I had invaded and played the normal Joseki. And I don't feel particularly inclined to try and run away and let black make alot of territory on top. The problem is that even if I throw away the approach stones black still makes alot of influence.

Anyway it just confuses me. What do you guys think about this move and how would you play against it?

You absolutely connect and fight. It is unavoidable in this situation. Black is busy making heavy stones and forcing you to become strong facing the area of B's framework.

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

So this move is basically forcing a fight to break out? I do connect but after that I don't know how to proceed. Presumably attack blacks stones?

As Dave said, you must connect; only move, no choice. A few ideas.

Thanks Ed and Dave, that's just what I needed ^_^

I usually play the following:


It usually plays very similar to black playing Q12.
Why is this wrong?

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a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

Phelan, I don't like that variation because it gives black a considerable amount of territory.

Stronger players got any input?

This is how I'd probably deal with it: I've never seen the move before, so I might have missed the strongest resistance. But black's shape is so bad here that I'm not sure that he has anything to do. Keep in mind the weakness of the corner when you're playing against this move, and try to exploit black's bad shape. Also, what's wrong with diving into the corner instead? You get sente and a ton of points out of it.

Phelan: Your move is wrong because you leave Black with a ton of territory, and you get nothing.

Then why is taking the outside good in the case of black Q12? Seems to me that Black also makes a ton of territory, and White gets only influence as well.

Why shouldn't White fight in that case too?

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

In that case, black's group on the side is a little weak. It usually (for me) ends up being 5-6 points, and the corner can still be invaded (Black can add some more points in the future by making White's wall thicker, but this leaves the corner invadable). White, on the other hand, gets a wall that is not very thick. That's the tradeoff. If we look at your variation, black has an extremely thick corner, which looks like at least 20, more like 25 points, while white has a wall which is somewhat short of liberties and too close to black's thickness. In particular, white's wall looks like you could even attack it.

Connect at Q14 and fight. You're on Tygem, so you knew a gigantic fight would be breaking out sooner or later, right? Shaddy posted some good reference variations which I agree with.

Just as some food for thought, the whole-board position after the black pincer appears in my database 173 times. In 142 of these cases, white chose to invade at 3-3. 12 times white played a one-space jump, and in seven of those games white followed up with a shoulder hit on the pincer stone. So jumping out seems perfectly fine, but if you don't like the variations that ensue you have alternatives.

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Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
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I guess you're right about the fighting:)

I just didn't feel very good giving black so much influence like in the 3-3 invasion joseki. The pincer after jumping out seems like a move I could try playing. But regardless, I'm happy that you're giving so much input

Ironically, that's exactly why you want to try that way -- it's not so much influence for B (it's a reasonable amount) --
otherwise how else will you learn to deal with influence? The 3-3 variation is a pro opening; 78 games from a database.

W gets worse than nothing: W gets himself a broken shape and has to fix his shape problem at (a):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$--------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . X . . . |
$$ . . . . Q . . . . |
$$ . . . . Q # Q . . |
$$ . . . . Q # . . . |
$$ . . . . a . X . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

You have company. Go Seigen does not like it, either. Here is part of a lesson from Go Seigen: 21st Century Go, vol. 4.

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Wow Bill, thanks a bunch! That was very enlightening:)

This variation makes me kinda hurt inside... Just the look of it, imagining that awkward white shape with nowhere to go and black with serious cash. Sure I could probably still take the corner, but my initial investment is now just waiting to be swallowed.

Having something facing the center isn't enough, and in the usual variation when you press them down, they aren't in a position to surround your stones, also if you DO play the joseki with the press as white, you should know that not only does white get real outer thickness, but he can still invade the corner later.

Look at that variation until it begins to hit you viscerally, that is the kind of shape you shouldn't need to think about. You should feel it.

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

Even a moron connects against a peep!

Imho this is a common case of repressing your instinct because someone told you once you shouldn't follow your opponent around.

Thank you all for your replies! I guess I need to stop playing that variation...

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

that peep looks so wrong...
if you connect and fight you will come out ahead (assuming you played everything else correctly).

it is my feeling saying telling me this so you should verify yourself.

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
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