3-3 point psuedo-joseki

Tami · #1

Does anybody have any thoughts on this opening? I cannot find it in either BruGo or Kogo, and I am unsure how to play against it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 3-3 Point Crawl $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems Black has crawled one time too often, but his position is solid and there is an opening at a.

If White extends straight away, then Black looks good with the following line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 3-3 Point Crawl $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X a 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . 4 . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I looked at cuts at a in several similar positions, but thanks to the extra crawl, I cannot see a way for her to make the cut work.

So far, the best line I can offer is

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 3-3 Point Crawl $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . 6 . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, White's influence does not look all that impressive, while Black seems to have acquired a fairly hefty profit.

Am I missing something? Is my thinking all wrong on this?

Thanks!

Eizero · #2

I think just playing d17 is okay. After that you have c11 and c14 aji.

Uberdude · #3

Yes, I agree with d17. I remember this from a tournament game I played a few years ago, where I omitted making good shape there, and then when white sneaked in I had a really nasty time keeping him cut (I tenukid to pincer a stone of his extending from my wall, I feared if I blocked he would just extend his stone). Matthew Macfadyen 6d said I should have blocked (d3 in may game, d17 in yours). Just fix your shape first, worry about extensions, pincering etc later. Here is the game:

In your game, blocking is even better as you have this sort of thing to aim at (if black a then b captures 3 stones, if black defends at b you have a ladder, or even if ladder not good for you you can save your stones and have cut black).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Next, bad for b $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 | $$ | . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . b X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So maybe black doesn't block at :b6:

aboveand plays as below instead, but then you can get some corner profit in sente, and can connect at a later for some territory and eyes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc B probably like this $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 | $$ | . a 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 9 8 X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 0 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

illluck · #4

Yes, if you compare it with the below joseki, it's hard to say that it is better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . 4 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tami · #5

Thanks for all the replies and variations. I had considered D17, but I had underestimated its effects. Well, now I shall be happy and eager to play it!

:tmbup:

OtakuViking · #6

As a side comment/question :razz:

I'm by no means a 3-3 expert or anything, but the 4-4 approach against 3-3 is a bit like a reduction play. Imagine the 3-3 has extensions on both sides, then you play 4-4. I read this somewhere but I'm just a lowly kyu so I'm just throwing it out there. You can try some other approaches like keima and 1 space/2 space, usually you get one side and black ignores or gets the other. The virtue of 3-3 is that it can be fairly lax about responding if somewhere else is extremely urgent.

I can only say that I think as a 5th move, for example. the 4-4 approach to 3-3 is a little bit weird if not 'wrong'. It may be perfectly ok to play it but I don't like it. I feel it better to approach from the sides or something...

my 2centz
Now I shall wait for a correction :lol:

Tooveli · #7

@OtakuViking

No corrections from me. I think 4-4 against 3-3 is similar to 3-3 against 4-4. It is only a 'joseki' move if the nearby stones make it good. 4-4 is good against 3-3 for reducing a moyo or building central thickness but concedes points locally.

Macfadyen once told me off for playing 4-4 against his 3-3 (on move 7 I think). At the time I was under the impression that this was a normal joseki move. I think this is a common misconception.

Uberdude · #8

Spot on OtakuViking. I used to think playing 4-4 shoulder hit right after 3-3 was a standard good move, but it is not. Guo Juan did a lesson about the 3-3 point at the London Open last year and the key point I learnt from it is that you should not think shoulder hit is the usual answer to 3-3. The normal moves should be some approach from the side (or tenuki of course). The shoulder hit should be reserved for situations where centre/moyo is important, for example your case of if the 3-3 makes a double wing then 4-4 is the key point to reduce it. The other case it is good is if it works well with a moyo you are building yourself. This is not the case on move 5! So I think this shoulder hit on move 5 in this game is a mistake: http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=315725. This is why I like to play 3-3 in a diagonal opening: a downside of 3-3 is that it can be pushed low with the shoulder hit, but in a diagonal opening it is harder to make a big moyo so this downside is less relevant.

The following joseki is locally good for black (as is that one illluck posted). Black gets large profit in the corner and sente. This white group is influence, but it is not thick and can even be attacked if black gets stones at a/b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . 4 . b , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You can see this in quite a few of Sakata's games as he liked to play 3-3 and to attack. Here is a nice example:

To illustrate here are a few of my games against, yes you've guessed it!, illluck on OGS. The first game was before I learnt about 4-4 being a bad default move and I played 2 shoulder hits to his 3-3s. I think I ended up with a pretty awful result of 2 fairly useless groups just sitting on dame and was behind after the opening and only won because I played better later.

The next one is more recent after I learnt about 4-4 being bad so instead I approached from the side.

Tami · #9

Again, thanks to everybody. This has been very enlightening.

Bill Spight · **#10**

Tami wrote:

Does anybody have any thoughts on this opening? I cannot find it in either BruGo or Kogo, and I am unsure how to play against it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 3-3 Point Crawl $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems Black has crawled one time too often, but his position is solid and there is an opening at a.

Yes, Black has crawled and gotten a low posture. His position is not all that solid, and "a" is not that good for him.

Tenuki is possible for White, and if White had only two stones in the corner, it would be easy. Three stones is more difficult to leave as is.

Quote:

If White extends straight away, then Black looks good with the following line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 3-3 Point Crawl $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B a 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . 4 . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White should not extend straight away, because of :bc:

. (That was not White's plan, anyway.)

:b3:

would be better at "b".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Assuming the ladder works, OC.

Quote:

So far, the best line I can offer is

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 3-3 Point Crawl $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X W . 6 . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X W . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Your

is fine. The :wc:

wall needs eye potential if you are not going to treat it as kikashi. :w2:

provides that. Black cannot push and cut because of the net. If Black makes another local play to enforce that (like :b5:

), you can consider sacrificing the wall.

is not indicated. Later White might play at "a" to bolster the group.

Quote:

However, White's influence does not look all that impressive, while Black seems to have acquired a fairly hefty profit.

Am I missing something? Is my thinking all wrong on this?

Thanks!

Yes, you are. Black only seems to have made a profit here. In fact, he has made a loss. You have to remember to consider the influence of the original 3-3 stone. With three moves Black has gained around 6 points. The influence of White's wall is easily worth more than that on an empty board, even considering its weakness. If you can make the knight's move with sente, so much the better.

Take a look at some ancient games, like in early 19th century Japan. Play was more territorial than today, but players were content to make walls that not only did not seem impressive, but did not seem to do much throughout the game. Those games are well worth the study.

Bill Spight · **#11**

Well, they made some unimpressive walls, but, as I was looking around for an example game, I realized that now I would not characterize them as not appearing to do much.

Anyway, here is a game that is not exactly what I had in mind, but it has a number of unimpressive walls.

I think that it is worth noting how an unimpressive wall could still be used to make territory elsewhere, or to invade.

Time · **#12**

Uberdude wrote:

You can see this in quite a few of Sakata's games as he liked to play 3-3 and to attack. Here is a nice example:

This is off-topic, but can anyone explain white 26? Often there are very slow looking solid moves in pro games that I would never come up with myself but can understand, but this one I don't understand at all.

Uberdude · **#13**

Time wrote:

This is off-topic, but can anyone explain white 26? Often there are very slow looking solid moves in pro games that I would never come up with myself but can understand, but this one I don't understand at all.

It's a key boundary point for influence. It becomes especially important once black seals the centre at p6. Black pushing there is pretty much sente (if white ignores he suffers a big loss of power). This power is a big help in the attack white launches on the shoulder hit group and enables white to separate at move 96.

Also compare it to the following joseki. I don't have Ishida volume 1 which would cover this, but Kogo's says black should continue at c immediately. A GoGoD search shows this to often be the case in the old days, less so now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Joseki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b 3 . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . 0 . 6 5 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c 9 a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But yes, it's often tough to decide whether these junction points are the best move, or slow.

Uberdude · **#14**

Uberdude wrote:

The shoulder hit should be reserved for situations where centre/moyo is important, for example your case of if the 3-3 makes a double wing then 4-4 is the key point to reduce it. The other case it is good is if it works well with a moyo you are building yourself. This is not the case on move 5! So I think this shoulder hit on move 5 in this game is a mistake: http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=315725.

I just finished that game, won it comfortably. You can see my review on OGS. Hard to say his move 5 shoulder hit lost the game, Kajiwara-style, but I was never behind from then on, though he did make some bigger mistakes later.

gowan · **#15**

The shoulder hit on the 3-3 stone might also be considered a probe. I recall there was a game played by Nie Wei Ping against some Japanese player several years ago in which Nie was Black and played move 3 as the shoulder hit on the 3-3 stone which had been played in the diagonally opposite corner from Black's first move. If I recall correctly the commentators said that the purpose of that move was to help Black decide which of the two empty corners to play in next, depending on White's response.

Uberdude · **#16**

Yeah, early probing to see which way white blocks makes sense if you then take sente. The big problem with the standard joseki is it is gote.

My guess is the plan is something like the below. Black takes the empty corner so that the turn at :b9:

plus extension to around a works with the 2nd corner he took. (Or just makes san-ren-sei or whatever with 9, with the turn as an aim for the future as it might be a bit heavy now).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Probe $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 5 . . . . a . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

3-3 point psuedo-joseki

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