(How) Do you play this as white?

SpongeBob · #1

Hey guys,

this happens every now and then in my games as white:

Black approaches my 4-4 and I pincer, because I want to break up any black moyo which might be developing early on.

Now black jumps out, I jump, black slides into the corner, I play 3-3. Now black either jumps out again, which I normally answer with a jump as well - or black pincers directly:

In my opinion, this feels too good for black. Now he kind of has the moyo that I was trying to avoid. I know that this is probably even, but still - to me it feels better for black.

What do you think? Even, or better for black?

If better for black, what do you do to avoid it? Back off with a keima in response to the first corner approach instead of pincer?

If equal, what would be your next move as white?

Sometimes, the sequence happens where black connects his stones (see SGF) which I also find painfull ...

jts · #2

W has a lot of fourth-line territory. Nothing to be disappointed about, in my book.

Anyway - can't W peep at G4 first? If B replies that cut shouldn't work. If B doesn't reply, isn't making B connect on the second line better than living with two points?

SpongeBob · #3

Yeah, jts - the peep at G4 is what I found, too, in order to at least keep black separated. However, when white jumps out now, it seems black lives easily.

And if white does not jump out, but plays something like C2 for example, then black can attack and thereby strengthen his group while white remains weak:

jts · #4

Okay but... were you expecting to kill black? In the variation you show, white has tons of territory on the left (plus room to expand) and black has a group with: two eyes. And some dame. Whatever attack B has on W is only going to last until K3 gets gobbled up, or W escapes elegantly into the center. In short, if that variation is the best B can do, it looks like a disaster. I think B almost certainly has to either ignore the peep, or respond to it more creatively, or omit living in gote in order to attack j3 more actively. Thoughts?

Bill Spight · #5

This rang a bell.

Go Seigen commented on this position in a game by Rui Naiwei (Go Seigen: 21st Century Go, vol. 1).

SpongeBob · #6

jts wrote:

I think B almost certainly has to either ignore the peep, or respond to it more creatively, or omit living in gote in order to attack j3 more actively. Thoughts?

Yeah jts, you're right, as long as black is not surrounded, he has no need to live in gote. I was not trying to kill him, but keep him weak ... which is kind of hard if he can make two eyes any time he wants to. (And it seems white does not have time to deny him that with an additional move at the bottom.)

Maybe I am judging this wrongly, it just feels that the pressure is more on white and that it is helping black to build something in the lower right. I am also not sure I would feel comfortable as white in the Go Seigen variation (thanks Bill, always fascinating to see Go Seigens ideas).

By the way, in my database, white is backing off at C6 instead of pincering the original approach twice as often. Maybe this is because of the 'counter-pincer'?

Loons · #7

Kogo's makes a similar observation about that peep.

Having seen Go Seigen's comment, I immediately have a relevant proverb.

If you can't pincer, play contact

gogameguru · #8

Going back a bit further, if you don't like this result after the one space pincer, maybe you just need to change your approach and play a looser/higher pincer?

In general the one space low pincer is the easiest for your partner to counter-attack (under normal circumstances) because (you guessed it!) it's close and low

. If you play a severe move, you generally get severe play. If you want to make it harder for them to pressure you like that, try a two or three space pincer (or even a four space splitting play/pseudo pincer).

When you say that you want to prevent a black moyo, what you're sort of saying is that you're more concerned about potential than territory, right? A fourth line pincer is good for that and it's even harder to attack because it's already further into the centre. Experiment with different moves and find one that works well for you. Eventually you might even decide that you prefer to enclose the corner

.

SpongeBob · #9

gogameguru wrote:

Experiment with different moves and find one that works well for you.

Good advice! It's funny, but I actually wouldn't have thought about that myself. :-)

(How) Do you play this as white?

Who is online