Shape problems

Uberdude · **#21**

This one there is rather more going on (no single super-urgent area I can identify) so it's not clear to me which bit of the board I should be playing in, let alone what the best shape is there! But my first thought before bed is:

Btw, in problem 1 the modern shape I was referring to was move 7 in my imagined order below. (Nevermind it's a bit odd white making a Chinese opening.) According to GoGoD, that approach of 7 against the Chinese side had a single appearance in 1978 (Sakata was white funnily enough), and then burst onto the scene in 2003 and has appeared over 200 times since.

illluck · **#22**

jts · **#23**

K14 clamp was my first instinct, and after reading and looking at one or two alternatives it seems to work. I didn't get into whole-board reading or grand strategic planning, but it seems that B can be happy with either a large top or a severe attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O 7 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X W 1 6 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O X . O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X . O X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O X X O O X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O X X O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O X O X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | O O O O X X . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . O X X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O 8 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 2 7 9 . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X W 1 6 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O X . O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X . O X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O X X O O X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X O O X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O X X O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O X O X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | O O O O X X . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . O X X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · **#24**

Uberdude wrote:

Btw, in problem 1 the modern shape I was referring to was move 7 in my imagined order below. (Nevermind it's a bit odd white making a Chinese opening.) According to GoGoD, that approach of 7 against the Chinese side had a single appearance in 1978 (Sakata was white funnily enough), and then burst onto the scene in 2003 and has appeared over 200 times since.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Contra Chinese $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The

approach to the Chinese was suggested, as far as I can tell, by Go Seigen in his 21st Century Go writings.

It also appears in ancient games, but not vs. the Chinese, OC.

It does feel a bit close, so I can see how the two space approach could be attractive.

Bill Spight · **#25**

This is the kind of position that I think Simba (in a related thread) would find useful. Actual shapes are not that many. The real question is when and where to make them.

I guess this is a dan level problem. I think that Sakata made the "only" play, but I could be wrong.

The game:

Uberdude · **#26**

Bill Spight wrote:

The game:

Now I can see that MoGo learnt ladders from the pros!

Uberdude · **#27**

Interesting that the 2 other suggestions were k14. I never even considered that move. I thought this was one of those problems where labelling the last move is a bit of a trick as the answer isn't local. But it is quite a sharp idea. Should I feel bad to not such a sharp idea, or good that my feeling for the game was that tenuki was correct and that k14 is presumably an overplay due to white resources such as below?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc k14 captured $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 4 . 8 . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X W 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X 7 5 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O X . O O 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X . O X . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O X X O O X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X O O X O . 3 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O X X O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O X O X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | O O O O X X . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . O X X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Trade ok? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 3 . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X W 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O X . O O 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X O X . O X 4 X b . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O X X O O X 5 6 . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X O O X O 7 8 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X O O X X O 9 0 . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X O O X X . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O X O X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | O O O O X X . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . O X X X . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's interesting to note that white played k16 rather than the j17 I feared, presumably because now black defended at m9 the k14 aji is more of a problem.

But what really impresses me is q11. After building the central strength this move suddenly makes q8 look almost dead, whereas before the q6 group looked like a weak pincered group. If I had read a bit further from my imagined m9 j17 m13 (I stopped there, wasn't obvious what white would do) to see q11 and how this massive tilts the balance of power/territory on the right side I would much more readily sacrifice k17 for now.

cyclops · **#28**

Before looking at the answer my guts chose M9. It weakens the groups below and above. It threatens to invade the right or to reduce the bottom while making profit. It seemed to me that I watched this position quite recently but that is rather improbable because I never watched this game.

Bill Spight · **#29**

Shape problem #3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . O O O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . . X X O O . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O . X O O . O . . O X . X X . . | $$ | . X . X O . X O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black has just played :bc:

.

Enjoy!

----

Edited the player to play in the diagram. (It is invisible.) Also added coordinates.

emeraldemon · **#30**

illluck · **#31**

Bill Spight · **#32**

Oops! This seemed to have slipped my mind. :oops:

Illluck got it right.

The answer:

Here is the SGF file.

Bill Spight · **#33**

Shape problem #4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

From the Okigo Jizai, by Hattori Inshuku.

Enjoy!

skydyr · **#34**

Bonobo · **#35**

Bki · **#36**

Bonobo wrote:

As for my guess...

mitsun · **#37**

Bonobo wrote:

The cutting stone cannot be captured, but W can get a ponnuki anyway, for a good result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black has no good response $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . 4 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bantari · **#38**

Bill Spight wrote:

The answer:

The game:

One thing that always bothered me about this kinds of answers is: why do we assume pros are always right?

I mean, sure - they are strong, much much stronger than us... but we do not only talk about "better" move or "better" plan, we talk about "The Answer" here - the one and only correct move and plan. And it makes me wonder... would another pro come up with a different move? Or a better move? Maybe a different plan? Are there are few equivalent moves in this position, or is m2 the only, or the absolutely best, move? And how dowe know it?

Would "God" play this move?
Or would She even get into this position to begin with? And if not, what does it tell us about the judgement of this particular pro?

And I don't necessarily mean this particular problem, I am really not strong enough to judge.
Just thinking out loud here...

PS>
I think it would help if we had some kind of a consesus here... like several pros analysing this position and all uneqivocally agreeing that m2 is the best move. Otherwise we just have one pro who has played one move... what if it was a mistake or a slack move? Pros make those as well...

oren · **#39**

Bantari wrote:

]
I think it would help if we had some kind of a consesus here... like several pros analysing this position and all uneqivocally agreeing that m2 is the best move. Otherwise we just have one pro who has played one move... what if it was a mistake or a slack move? Pros make those as well...

That's why I like commentary, since often there are plenty of moves that look fine to pros and will be mentioned.

Also one book which gives three pros independently an opening position and asking how they would play. All three get fairly different games quickly and some dismiss openings another pro had picked.

Bill Spight · **#40**

Bantari wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

The answer:

The game:

One thing that always bothered me about this kinds of answers is: why do we assume pros are always right?

I mean, sure - they are strong, much much stronger than us... but we do not only talk about "better" move or "better" plan, we talk about "The Answer" here - the one and only correct move and plan. And it makes me wonder... would another pro come up with a different move? Or a better move? Maybe a different plan? Are there are few equivalent moves in this position, or is m2 the only, or the absolutely best, move? And how dowe know it?

Would "God" play this move?
Or would She even get into this position to begin with? And if not, what does it tell us about the judgement of this particular pro?

And I don't necessarily mean this particular problem, I am really not strong enough to judge.
Just thinking out loud here...

PS>
I think it would help if we had some kind of a consesus here... like several pros analysing this position and all uneqivocally agreeing that m2 is the best move. Otherwise we just have one pro who has played one move... what if it was a mistake or a slack move? Pros make those as well...

Well, these are not best move problems, they are shape problems. What is the locally efficient play? Not, what is the best play on the board? And I think, yes, the vast majority of pro moves are locally efficient. Sometimes one sacrifices local efficiency for global purposes, but as a rule one can achieve global goals with locally efficient moves. Besides, local efficiency is easier to achieve than global correctness.

In these problems, I think that the shape play is clear. And I think that consensus among pros on shape plays is virtually 100%.

Shape problems

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