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 Post subject: vertical ladders
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:00 am 
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Disclaimer: I am not sure this subject hasn't been touched before and I'm not even sure it isn't nonsense.

In real life ladders prefer a vertical position. Not so in go where they tend to have a diagonal direction.
In go we know the ladder as a sequence of moves in which alternating an attacker threatens to capture and a defender threatens to escape. Typically this repeats in a fixed pattern until an edge is reached or a so called ladderbreaker. This is the global aspect of ladders. Its success might be decided far, far away. If possible a local solution is preferable.
Usually we only consider diagonal ladders; they resemble a staircase. The ladder than develops parallel to a diagonal of the board.
I propose also to consider vertical ladders of which the next diagram is the simplest ( boring ) example.
first edit: please skip the hidden part it is rightly dismantled by Li Kao.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B to move first
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O |
$$ . . . . X . X O |
$$ . . . . O X X O |
$$ . . . . O X X O |
$$ . O O O O X O O |
$$ . O X X X O X . |
$$ . . . X . O . X |
$$ ----------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c dia 1: B to kill
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O |
$$ . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X O |
$$ . . , . X O |
$$ . X X X O O |
$$ . X O O X X |
$$ . . . . X . |
$$ ------------+[/go]

To kill B has to climb the ladder, chasing W up until W breaks his neck against the ceiling.

Like the diagonal ladder also the vertical ladder has more exiting variants.
Here an example resulting from a trick play in the tsuke-hiki joseki after a tenuki.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c dia 2a 6 tenuki
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 8 4 3 5 . . . |
$$ , . 0 9 7 2 , 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c dia 2b trickplay 5 at a
$$ --------------------------+
$$ . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 9 2 a 6 . . . . . |
$$ . . 8 c 3 1 O O X X . . . |
$$ . . . , 4 O X X O , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . b 7 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

after 4 B fears both the ( diagonal ) ladder at b and the capture at c ( miai ) so he tries the trickplay 5 at a.
7 defeats the diagonal ladder; 8 defeats the trickplay by a vertical ladder as shown in the next diagrams.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c dia 2c
$$ ----------------------------+
$$ . . . 6 3 5 . O . . . . . . |
$$ . . 1 X 2 X O . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . O 4 X X O O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O O X X O , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The ladder gets its base.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c dia 2d B gets killed in the opposite corner
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . 8 5 1 . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 3 4 X X O X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 2 . O O X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O O O X X O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c dia 2e 8 at a
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . 9 a 5 1 . X X . X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 3 4 X X O X X O X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 6 2 . O O . O O X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O O O X X O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Question1: Is this last vertical ladder the only way to kill B's top or is there a local solution?
Question2: Anyone another type of a vertical ladder other than the two types shown here?

first edit: hidden the example critized in the next post by Li Kao ( thx )

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Last edited by cyclops on Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: vertical ladders
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:52 am 
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cyclops wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B to move first
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O |
$$ . . . . X . X O |
$$ . . . . O X X O |
$$ . . . . O X X O |
$$ . O O O O X O O |
$$ . O X X X O X . |
$$ . . . X . O . X |
$$ ----------------+[/go]

I don't understand how to kill as black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B to move first
$$ . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 O |
$$ . . . . X . X O |
$$ . . . . O X X O |
$$ . . . . O X X O |
$$ . O O O O X O O |
$$ . O X X X O X . |
$$ . . . X . O . X |
$$ ----------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: vertical ladders
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:02 am 
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you are too smart ;) . I'll repair this example ( shouldn't be too difficult ). What about my other example. Isn't it cute?

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 Post subject: Re: vertical ladders
Post #4 Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:19 am 
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The other example looks to me like it contains mistakes too, but I'll leave it to a stronger player to figure it out.

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 Post subject: Re: vertical ladders
Post #5 Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:35 am 
Gosei
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This is how I've always seen it played:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ----------------------------+
$$ . . 7 6 3 5 8 O . . . . . . |
$$ . . 1 X 2 X O . O . . . . . |
$$ . 0 . O 4 X X O O X X . . . |
$$ . . . . O O O X X O , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c B gets killed in the opposite corner
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 X X X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 2 X X O X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . O 4 O O X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O O O X X O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Basically the same thing.

When I play out sequences in my head (i.e., not for an actual game being physically played), half the time they devolve into the sequence above. Yet I've never actually had an opportunity to use that move in a game.

I agree, the position is pretty cool.

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 Post subject: Re: vertical ladders
Post #6 Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:22 pm 
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Dusk Eagle wrote:
I agree, the position is pretty cool.


I thought for a moment your solution is local. But it isn't. B plays d18 next and the pattern repeats. It is another vertical ladder - maybe the same in another disguise - that accomplishes the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: vertical ladders
Post #7 Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:09 pm 
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BTW, I think that the proper word here is orthogonal, not vertical.

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