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 Post subject: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:25 pm 
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Recently I have been musing about whether the replaying of kifu can be considered a "yin" activity. I compare it to when a baby receives milk from its mother's breast. One is nourished, but there is no need to chew. The nourishment received helps to strengthen muscles and bones.

As well, doing puzzles can be considered a yang activity. It's like when one puts solid food in her mouth and chews on it. One is also nourished, but there is the need to chew well to make the food soft enough to swallow and digest. The nourishment received helps to maintain supple body tissues.

In Chinese philosophy, an excess of yin can lead to yang and vice versa. On this point I posit that replaying lots and lots of kifu eventually leads to the ability to analyze board positions. Doing lots and lots of puzzles in all categories eventually results in developing intuition than can be effectively applied during play.

I'll keep it brief for the sake of easy digestion :lol: Much obliged in advance for your kind input.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #2 Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:54 pm 
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I hope that I posted my question in the appropriate forum :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #3 Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:17 pm 
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How did you get you hands on the kifu? Or was it one of your own games? If it is for a important game it must be quite valuable. Most people have to be satisfied with a copy of the game record.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #4 Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:32 pm 
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DrStraw wrote:
How did you get you hands on the kifu? Or was it one of your own games? If it is for a important game it must be quite valuable. Most people have to be satisfied with a copy of the game record.
Many are those that can learn important things from careful review of the kifu. It can add greatly to their knowledge of GO :P

It appears that I wasn't clear with my question :oops: I meant replaying pro kifus repeatedly with board and stones as part of a training regimen, without pausing to analyze anything. If done enough times, it can be an example of yin segueing into yang.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #5 Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:04 pm 
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tekesta wrote:
DrStraw wrote:
How did you get you hands on the kifu? Or was it one of your own games? If it is for a important game it must be quite valuable. Most people have to be satisfied with a copy of the game record.
Many are those that can learn important things from careful review of the kifu. It can add greatly to their knowledge of GO :P

It appears that I wasn't clear with my question :oops: I meant replaying pro kifus repeatedly with board and stones as part of a training regimen, without pausing to analyze anything. If done enough times, it can be an example of yin segueing into yang.


Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I am wondering why replaying the kifu instead of the game record makes any difference. In fact, I would think that a printed game record would be easier to read than the kifu, which would surely be hand written. And I am also wondering how you got you hands on the kifu.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #6 Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:06 pm 
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DrStraw wrote:
Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I am wondering why replaying the kifu instead of the game record makes any difference. In fact, I would think that a printed game record would be easier to read than the kifu, which would surely be hand written. And I am also wondering how you got you hands on the kifu.

son: I'm hungry
dad: hello hungry, I'm dad


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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #7 Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:11 pm 
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xed_over wrote:
son: I'm hungry
dad: hello hungry, I'm dad


Ah, you played that game with your kid as well, did you! Although I am not so sure what it has to do with kifu.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #8 Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:15 pm 
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DrStraw wrote:
xed_over wrote:
son: I'm hungry
dad: hello hungry, I'm dad


Ah, you played that game with your kid as well, did you! Although I am not so sure what it has to do with kifu.

you know very well what the original poster is speaking of, in spite of him using what you (and others) consider the wrong terminology. yet, you don't point out that fact, instead, you simply make fun by by using the same words back at him with your different meaning that is not yet obvious to him.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #9 Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:17 pm 
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Someone who has made 331 posts has no excuse for using the wrong term.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #10 Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:38 pm 
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DrStraw wrote:
Someone who has made 331 posts has no excuse for using the wrong term.

At whom exactly should Tekesta then address their apology, at whose feet sink down in shame? And who will sing songs of praise for the custodians of orthodoxy?

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #11 Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:51 pm 
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I don't generally think in terms of yin and yang, but I certainly think that a lot of subconscious training (e.g. replaying pro games) can have an effect on conscious thought. I also believe the converse: the conscious choices we make, in go or otherwise, eventually train our subconscious ways of thinking.

Replaying pro games can be a very pleasant way to keep my mind engaged with go when I am too tired (or not in the mood) for the mental struggle that is required for solving difficult problems or playing a game. I suppose I engage it as a "yin" activity in this way, though I don't do enough of it to produce an immediately noticeable effect in my play. It is fun, though. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #12 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:11 am 
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Someone who has made 1230 posts has no excuse for not knowing the names of some modern professional players.


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Post #13 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:22 am 
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DrStraw wrote:
I am wondering why replaying the kifu instead of the game record makes any difference.
DrStraw wrote:
Someone who has made 331 posts has no excuse for using the wrong term.
I'm confused: which wrong term ?
The Sensei entry on game record seems to imply they are synonymous to each other.
( Yes, I know Sensei's is not always 100% accurate -- is there a mistake in this case ? )

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #14 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:25 am 
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Quote:
Someone who has made 1230 posts has no excuse for not knowing the names of some modern professional players.


He has my full support. Actually the real irony is that he doesn't understand the meanings (plural) of kifu himself. But that very fact validates his underlying point: don't use unnecessary, poorly understood or controversial foreign terms.

Above all, ban goban. Ban jubango. Ban moku. Ban twee macrons on Japanese words.

Or just ban everything. It's simpler.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #15 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:40 am 
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Oh, I know there are multiple meaning, John. I was just being a little obtuse because, like you, I get so tired of people using the term, and others you mention, when there is no need. So I looked up the SL entry and decided to interpret it exactly as stated there.

The people who use these words would probably be the first to complain if we started using the Japanese terms for the various types of pincers or extensions.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #16 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:31 am 
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But isn't it kōwai to use Japanese words desu? I just want to express how much I daisōōki Japanese!



Now to ready some popcorn...

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #17 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:02 am 
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Quote:
Oh, I know there are multiple meaning, John. I was just being a little obtuse because, like you, I get so tired of people using the term, and others you mention, when there is no need. So I looked up the SL entry and decided to interpret it exactly as stated there.


Good. And your implication that the SL entry is wrong is correct.

Quote:
Someone who has made 1230 posts has no excuse for not knowing the names of some modern professional players.


A total non-sequitur, but in any case I think they have every excuse. Someone who has been round the go scene a long while has learned to sift the wheat from the chaff, and has better things to do than work out which 12-year-old has licked more lollipops this week, what ever happened to that 14-year-old who once won some tournament or other, and which is which - Ke Jie or Xie Ke?

But it's not just an age thing. I imagine most people know of Tiger Woods. How many know who won the PGA championship last year? How many care?


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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #18 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:45 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Someone who has made 1230 posts has no excuse for not knowing the names of some modern professional players.


A total non-sequitur, but in any case I think they have every excuse. Someone who has been round the go scene a long while has learned to sift the wheat from the chaff, and has better things to do than work out which 12-year-old has licked more lollipops this week, what ever happened to that 14-year-old who once won some tournament or other, and which is which - Ke Jie or Xie Ke?

But it's not just an age thing. I imagine most people know of Tiger Woods. How many know who won the PGA championship last year? How many care?

Being illogical was kind of the point, as it was analogous to DrStraw's claim having several hundred posts means one should have a good understanding of Japanese Go terms (btw I'm not a fan of kifu or moku, but I do use hane). I just find it amusing how DrStraw repeatedly tells us of his ignorance of modern professional Go players with seeming pride yet had lots more posts than our supposed fool tekesta. Though seeing as those lists of pros he hasn't heard of include players in their 30s with dozens of titles like Gu Li who have been top players for a decade (hardly a 12-year-old lollipop-licker), perhaps it's more like he knows who Jack Nicklaus is (same era as Sakata) but hasn't heard of Tiger Woods.


Last edited by Uberdude on Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #19 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:17 am 
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I think replaying a musical score (kifu) could be very satisfying. Or perhaps the original poster was talking about skin (kifu) or contribution to charity (kifu)?

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #20 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:40 am 
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Whatever your think of Japanese terminology I don't think trolling threads in which they are used is the right way to express yourself. It's disappointing to click on what sounded like an interesting discussion only to find that there has only been one on topic post.

tekesta wrote:
Recently I have been musing about whether the replaying of kifu can be considered a "yin" activity. I compare it to when a baby receives milk from its mother's breast. One is nourished, but there is no need to chew. The nourishment received helps to strengthen muscles and bones.

As well, doing puzzles can be considered a yang activity. It's like when one puts solid food in her mouth and chews on it. One is also nourished, but there is the need to chew well to make the food soft enough to swallow and digest. The nourishment received helps to maintain supple body tissues.

In Chinese philosophy, an excess of yin can lead to yang and vice versa. On this point I posit that replaying lots and lots of kifu eventually leads to the ability to analyze board positions. Doing lots and lots of puzzles in all categories eventually results in developing intuition than can be effectively applied during play.

I'll keep it brief for the sake of easy digestion :lol: Much obliged in advance for your kind input.


This is my first time hearing about Ying and Yang in this way. Is there a good place to read about the concept in English?

Going just by your description here I think there's something to be said for that approach. It's something that gets discussed a lot without the Chinese philosophical spin but I don't know of any consensus ever being reached. My own take on it is that it's important to link your analytical study with your intuitive practice because they need to build on each other, so while pro games do seem like an obvious place to focus on the intuitive side of things, I wouldn't go so far as to say it is one type of activity. The same goes for problems, sometimes it might be worth burning through large amounts of easy problems without reading things out.


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