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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #21 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:56 am 
Oza
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Oddly, I'm fine with kifu, but I can't stand the specification of font in tekesta's post. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #22 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:24 am 
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Though seeing as those lists of pros he hasn't heard of include players in their 30 with dozens of titles like Gu Li who have been top players for a decade (hardly a 12-year-old lollipop-licker), perhaps it's more like he knows who Jack Nicklaus is (same era as Sakata) but hasn't heard of Tiger Woods.


No, I think that misses the point. There are certain players who have a long-lasting impact that transcends their own game/sport. There are players who have a strong impact but only within the game/sport itself.

In my experience, Yi Ch'ang-ho is known to virtually every Korean non-go player I have ever met. He is fairly well known in Japan and China. Yi Se-tol, despite now being ranked higher, is known to no such person I've talked to and no-one in China and Japan is queuing up to stick his name on books.

In China, I think Nie Weiping is still a well known name among non-go players who would, I imagine, look blank at the name Gu Li who ha snot won dozens of titles BTW). I suspect even Chang Ha may still have wider recognition.

In Japan, we have had the likes of Sakata and Go Seigen in go, Oyama Yasuhara in shogi. Elsewhere, I detest basketball and have never watched a whole game, but even I have heard of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant.

Even with a sport/game more is less. I just happen to believe that the modern scene in go, with too many tournaments, ridiculous time limits, too many players, and too many young players in particular, loses focus - televised games notwithstanding and so the wider public pays no attention. That can change in a heartbeat through some unexpected intervention, but until that time, for many of us, modern go players are just flies buzzing round our heads.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #23 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:44 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
[..] the modern scene in go, with [..] too many players, and too many young players in particular [..]
[..] for many of us, modern go players are just flies buzzing round our heads.

Wow, this sounds quite contemptuous to me. Am I misinterpreting? Yes, apparently I did misinterpret, thanks @ Uberdude, and apologies to JF.

Also, I’m sure that I’m rather a fly than one of “us”, also b/c I’m trying to get more players to the game, and particularly more young players.


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Last edited by Bonobo on Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #24 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:02 pm 
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Yes, fair point Tiger Woods is lots more famous than Gu Li so that comparison was not so good, but my main point was that Tiger Woods was too recent. I was going to make the comparison with Lee Chang Ho but thought DrStraw would probably have heard of him, whereas Gu Li was in the most recent list of pros DrStraw hadn't heard of except Nie Weiping and Rui Naiwei, along with younger whipper-snappers I'm not surprised he hasn't heard of like Shi Yue, Fan Tingyu, Mi Yuting, Ke Jie etc.

(Gu Li has won dozens of titles if you count domestic and international, 43 according to Wikipedia, don't know how up-to-date that is).

Bonobo, I think he means pros, contrasting the many young international title winners with flitting careers (see http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.j.s ... Table.html) we have now with the decades long successful careers of players like Sakata or Cho Chikun "back when I were a lad".


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Post #25 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:26 pm 
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oren wrote:
I can't stand the specification of font in tekesta's post. :)
The font looks quite elegant on an iPhone -- does it look bad on your display ?
Or, why can't you stand it ?

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Post #26 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:41 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
The font looks quite elegant on an iPhone -- does it look bad on your display ?
Or, why can't you stand it ?


I find it slightly more difficult to read than the standard font, and I generally believe the choice of font display should be in the reader's hands on a forum. There is no need to specify fonts.

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Post #27 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:07 pm 
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oren wrote:
EdLee wrote:
The font looks quite elegant on an iPhone -- does it look bad on your display ?
Or, why can't you stand it ?


I find it slightly more difficult to read than the standard font, and I generally believe the choice of font display should be in the reader's hands on a forum. There is no need to specify fonts.


Is it just this serif typeface or do you dislike serif fonts online? Just curious.

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Post #28 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:11 pm 
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Aidoneus wrote:
Is it just this serif typeface or do you dislike serif fonts online? Just curious.
Interesting.

A quick scan:

sans-serif : New York Times app, apple.com, microsoft.com, facebook.com, google.com (except for their logo :) ), npr.org .
serif : L.A. Times app, New Yorker app, WSJ .

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Post #29 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:15 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
oren wrote:
I can't stand the specification of font in tekesta's post. :)
The font looks quite elegant on an iPhone -- does it look bad on your display ?
Or, why can't you stand it ?


That kind of font can be very uncomfortable to read if you've double vision as the letters can blend in together, depending on a number of factors especially text size and letter spacing.

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Post #30 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:15 pm 
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Aidoneus wrote:
oren wrote:
EdLee wrote:
The font looks quite elegant on an iPhone -- does it look bad on your display ?
Or, why can't you stand it ?


I find it slightly more difficult to read than the standard font, and I generally believe the choice of font display should be in the reader's hands on a forum. There is no need to specify fonts.


Is it just this serif typeface or do you dislike serif fonts online? Just curious.


It's bad form(TM) to specify form except in the vaguest sense, as the form should be configurable for the user viewing the content. If you like, you can set a stylesheet to change all standard text on websites to a particular font of your own choosing. If you specify a particular font for a part of a page separate from the rest of the fonts, there should be a good reason for overriding the way the user would like the font displayed.

Something like a code block, to make particular text stand apart, might be a good use of this. The whim of the poster, less so. Nobody reads posts on here to appreciate the tailor-made design of the post.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #31 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:40 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
Yes, fair point Tiger Woods is lots more famous than Gu Li so that comparison was not so good, but my main point was that Tiger Woods was too recent. I was going to make the comparison with Lee Chang Ho but thought DrStraw would probably have heard of him, whereas Gu Li was in the most recent list of pros DrStraw hadn't heard of except Nie Weiping and Rui Naiwei, along with younger whipper-snappers I'm not surprised he hasn't heard of like Shi Yue, Fan Tingyu, Mi Yuting, Ke Jie etc.


Well I have heard of Gu Li, but he is young, certainly not of the older generation I was referring to with Nie and Rui. If someone was born after I reached shodan I consider him the yougner generation regardless of how many tournaments he has won.

And yes, I do know who Tiger Woods is, althought I have never seen him play. I have watched Jack Nicklaus many times (on TV).

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 Post subject: Off Topic: Forum Typography
Post #32 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:25 pm 
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Off-Topic blabber and bling bling re: forum typography
This what it looks like on my OS X with Chrome, and IIRC I didn’t change type settings:
Attachment:
Screen Shot 2015-02-10 at 02.12.37.png
Screen Shot 2015-02-10 at 02.12.37.png [ 210.91 KiB | Viewed 1334 times ]


Also, while I’ve learnt that serifs are better for fluid reading on paper b/c they lead the eye, I also have learnt that for screen it is better to use sans-serif fonts because the serifs are uglified by the pixel-wise resolution. I don't know whether it has improved with Apple’s modern “Retina” screens.


I prefer sans-serif fonts for reading text on screens, serif fonts easily turn into a mish-mash (yes, also with my reading glasses on).

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #33 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:06 pm 
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Looks like I caught DrStraw at a bad moment LOL

Kifu is a Japanese word of Chinese origin, so it can take on more than one meaning, depending on context. In the context of Go I understand this word as referring to a printed record of a game of Go. It is likely that I used broadly and overlooked subtler - yet important - shades of meaning.

So, what do I mean by the replaying of game records as a "yin" activity? My understanding of Chinese philosophy is superficial at best, so if there is the need for correction I won't protest. AFAIK yin refers to actions and characteristics that can be considered as being of the "female" half of creation, with yang meaning those actions and characteristics that are considered to be of the "male" half.

On the Sensei's Library article on Ancient Chinese Go rules & philosophy there is a reference to yin & yang. After reading this and reflecting on this duality, I began thinking about whether. This can be considered a continuation of a topic that has already been covered in other L19 posts, but this is the first time I linked it with a philosophy.

I approach the question out of curiosity, rather than out of any desire to prove my intellectual superiority. (There are a fair number on L19 that have 10x the brains that I have. You know how you are.)

Also, there are complaints that my choice of font makes for difficult reading. So, I will just stick with the standard. Hopefully everyone will be able to read text clearly.


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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #34 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:08 pm 
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Bonobo wrote:
DrStraw wrote:
Someone who has made 331 posts has no excuse for using the wrong term.

At whom exactly should Tekesta then address their apology, at whose feet sink down in shame? And who will sing songs of praise for the custodians of orthodoxy?
This is probably a nice bit of sarcasm, but I do not believe there is anything for which to apologize, other than having offended the sensibilities of one or two members on this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #35 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:15 pm 
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DrStraw wrote:
Someone who has made 331 posts has no excuse for using the wrong term.
True, but then again I do not consider myself very proficient in Japanese, despite having studied it in the past.

As well, being catty in regards to mistakes with terms of foreign origin is, in my opinion, an ineffective means of reducing a person's ignorance. It would be more effective simply to point out respectfully the mistake when it occurs.


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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #36 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:29 pm 
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DrStraw wrote:
Well I have heard of Gu Li, but he is young, certainly not of the older generation I was referring to with Nie and Rui. If someone was born after I reached shodan I consider him the yougner generation regardless of how many tournaments he has won.
That is a natural way of saying it. As you may already know, professional Go has changed much since the days of Nie and Rui, and Rin Kaiho, Koichi Kobayashi and the other top Japanese players of the late Showa era.

Those "whippersnappers" in today's Chinese professional Go scene are many times more powerful than you and I put together. So much so, that I would speak of them respectfully, even if they are several years younger than me. They probably spent their days at Go school mostly studying games by masters of the last 30 years, instead of the Edo and Meiji era Honinbos and the great Japanese masters of the Taisho and Showa eras. Many of us in the Go communities Western countries are mostly familiar with these, so we tend to know more about them than we do about old Chinese masters such as Fan Xiping and Huang Longshi, or more recent ones such as Wu Songsheng and Ma Xiaochun.

Quote:
And yes, I do know who Tiger Woods is, althought I have never seen him play. I have watched Jack Nicklaus many times (on TV).
My father knows of Jack Nicklaus as well. Golf players of his generation were much classier than today's crop of golf stars. At the very least they kept their private affairs... private.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #37 Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:07 am 
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Everyone knows that the OP was referring to a game record. Despite the blowhard replies that the word kifu was being used inaccurately, I still don't know why, and am inclined to care less and start using Japanese words incorrectly just to see who it riles.

tekesta wrote:
Recently I have been musing about whether the replaying of kifu can be considered a "yin" activity. I compare it to when a baby receives milk from its mother's breast. One is nourished, but there is no need to chew. The nourishment received helps to strengthen muscles and bones.

As well, doing puzzles can be considered a yang activity. It's like when one puts solid food in her mouth and chews on it. One is also nourished, but there is the need to chew well to make the food soft enough to swallow and digest. The nourishment received helps to maintain supple body tissues.

In Chinese philosophy, an excess of yin can lead to yang and vice versa. On this point I posit that replaying lots and lots of kifu eventually leads to the ability to analyze board positions. Doing lots and lots of puzzles in all categories eventually results in developing intuition than can be effectively applied during play.


Maybe your post provoked snarky replies because it seems hard to get a handle on. Why should one form of nourishment lead to stronger muscles and bones and the other to body tissue? How do you determine that one aspect of go is more yin or yang than another? How does yin and yang balance each other - is this an ideal or is it viewed as something that occurs automatically? What I mean by my last question is, if we assume that your categorizations are ok, does Chinese philosophy say that an excess of yin always brings about more yang or just when a person is in balance?

As to your hypothesis that replaying kifu (is that some kind of donkey?) will bring about the ability to analyze board positions, who know? Try it out! My feeling is that the more passively (yinly?) you replay the games, the less it will add to your ability to analyze board positions. Replaying a game doesn't have to be sitting back and watching - you can also be trying to make and justify the decisions yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #38 Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:20 am 
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tekesta wrote:
Those "whippersnappers" in today's Chinese professional Go scene are many times more powerful than you and I put together. So much so, that I would speak of them respectfully, even if they are several years younger than me.


Referring to someone as of the younger generation is in no way disrespectful. It is a statement of fact, and the simple fact is that I have not kept up with the younger generation because I no longer study the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #39 Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:56 am 
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daal wrote:
Everyone knows that the OP was referring to a game record. Despite the blowhard replies that the word kifu was being used inaccurately, I still don't know why, and am inclined to care less and start using Japanese words incorrectly just to see who it riles.


Don't forget to add an incorrect macron. It's vital to add to the irritation factor.

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 Post subject: Re: Replaying kifu: a 陰 (yin) activity?
Post #40 Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:58 am 
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DrStraw wrote:
Referring to someone as of the younger generation is in no way disrespectful. It is a statement of fact, and the simple fact is that I have not kept up with the younger generation because I no longer study the game.
A friend of mine once told me that once an amateur gets to shodan, the need to study intensively begins to decrease. I imagine that at this level the law of diminishing returns begins to make itself felt. He also told me that by 5d, one knows more than enough to be able to teach Go fundamentals to a novice.

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