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 Post subject: Teaching value of old Chinese games.
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:22 pm 
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Hello. Today for the first time in months I began replaying the 40 games found in Ruoshi Sun's Games of Wonder, a book containing games by ancient Chinese masters such as Huang Longshi, Fan Xiping, and Cheng Lanru. The fuseki is tasukiboshi in all games and so this may not be of much interest to many of us amateurs, but I was blown away by the tactical brilliance displayed therein. Does anyone here believe that, at least in terms of improving reading ability and tactics, the games of Huang Longshi and other old Chinese masters can prove useful? For your consideration I have included below 3 Huang Longshi games. Much obliged in advance for your kind input.






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 Post subject: Re: Teaching value of old Chinese games.
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:28 pm 
Judan

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Why wouldn't they be useful?

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching value of old Chinese games.
Post #3 Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:43 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Why wouldn't they be useful?
Perhaps a more accurate question would be, "How many in the Western Go community know about them?" More than a few recent arrivals to the game learned about it from Hikaru no Go, which means that Shusaku may be the only historical player they know.

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching value of old Chinese games.
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:27 am 
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I uploaded these Huang Longshi games to expose the tactical brilliance of the moves therein. Of course these games will not yield much of benefit regarding the application of modern opening theory, but I believe that the amateur player can derive important lessons in tactical exchanges from replaying and studying them. Especially weaker players as their main focus is to improve their tactics. And, TBH, I find the style of play in these games to be exciting and interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching value of old Chinese games.
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:58 am 
Oza
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tekesta wrote:
I uploaded these Huang Longshi games to expose the tactical brilliance of the moves therein. Of course these games will not yield much of benefit regarding the application of modern opening theory, but I believe that the amateur player can derive important lessons in tactical exchanges from replaying and studying them. Especially weaker players as their main focus is to improve their tactics. And, TBH, I find the style of play in these games to be exciting and interesting.


They're good games. Modern games are good games too. Watch whatever you like. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching value of old Chinese games.
Post #6 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:40 pm 
Judan

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oren wrote:
They're good games. Modern games are good games too. Watch whatever you like. :)


Contrast this with the games I watch most often - mid-dan level players blitzing on KGS.

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 Post subject: Re: Teaching value of old Chinese games.
Post #7 Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:22 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Contrast this with the games I watch most often - mid-dan level players blitzing on KGS.
One does get that very impression when replaying through an Old Chinese game, but let's keep in mind that the group tax of 2 points per group applied to additional groups. That is, for every group more than that of the opponent 2 points, or 1 stone, were deducted from the final score. (Also, area scoring was in current use by Huang Longshi's time and even by Guo Bailing's time, in the 1500s.) So if had 185 points divided among 7 groups and you opponent had 176 points divided among 3 groups, as you had 4 groups more, a total of 8 points (4 x 2 = 8) was deducted from your final score. So you end up with 177 points to 176 for your opponent. If the margin is close enough, it is possible to lose a game on just the group tax. Thus players in ancient China would play in order to connect their groups and therefore have fewer groups in total at the end of the game. This explains the chaotic fighting typically seen in the games of the old Chinese masters.

In some ways, komi functions as a kind of scoring tax. Instead of group quantity being taxed, Black is being taxed for the advantage of having the first move.

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