It is currently Thu May 25, 2017 3:36 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Becoming better at Go by playing lots of games?
Post #1 Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:07 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 493
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 70
KGS: FanXiping
OGS: slashpine
Greetings again and my apologies for the long absence.

During my time as a Go player I've heard that playing a lot of games is essential to growth as such. Eventually I came to the realization that this might actually be bad rather than good, as in my experience I played many games without going over my bad habits and in the process these became entrenched. In response to this I concluded that it's better to study much and play some. The result is that I have learned more Go theory, but at the same time I find myself needing more over-the-board experience.

Just recently I thought about all those players who sincerely believe that playing a lot of games is the way to greatness in Go. How can they avoid going through my kind of experience? I realized just now that playing lots and lots of games does work, but only if each and every game is reviewed after both sides pass. This approach would be similar to practicing playing a piece of music on the musical instrument of your choice. Your teacher tells you whether you are using proper technique, whether your notes are at the right pitch, whether you are holding a note for the right length of time, etc. By reviewing each and every game a beginner plays, he/she can know what was done right and what was done wrong, and apply the lessons from the post-game review to the next game he/she plays. This way the beginner improves slowly but steadily.

Tell me what you think of this approach and whether it would be viable. Much obliged in advance for your input!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Becoming better at Go by playing lots of games?
Post #2 Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:25 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6076
Liked others: 1426
Was liked: 2325
Get better at go by playing lots of games against better players.

Playing against players who cannot punish your mistakes will reinforce those mistakes. Postmortems with your opponent are good, even if your opponent is the same strength as you, but if you can't do that, do your own postmortems later. If you can get a review from a stronger player, fine, but best to do your own postmortem beforehand.

As for beginners, for preference they should play against SDKs, if their aim is to become a good player.

_________________
"Drooling Banjos"

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Becoming better at Go by playing lots of games?
Post #3 Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:55 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2182
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 659
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
I totally agree with Bill. Playing lots of games is important - as long as they are with players whose moves can teach you something. At that leads to the keys point: you cannot learn anything if you do not review all your games.

When I was a SDK I spent more time reviewing my games than I did playing them. So perhaps the key is to review lots of your games, not play lots of games.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Becoming better at Go by playing lots of games?
Post #4 Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:13 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 493
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 70
KGS: FanXiping
OGS: slashpine
Dr. Straw has a point. It's better to review lots of games than to just play lots of games (and this probably includes reading commentary on pro games), but in turn wouldn't playing lots of games against slightly stronger players [b]and[/i] reviewing each one be a sure way to improve? Which leads me to the next point. Why not make it a point to record games on paper, as beginners usually don't have the powers of recall that more experienced Go players would possess?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Becoming better at Go by playing lots of games?
Post #5 Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:11 am 
Judan

Posts: 6076
Liked others: 1426
Was liked: 2325
tekesta wrote:
Dr. Straw has a point. It's better to review lots of games than to just play lots of games (and this probably includes reading commentary on pro games), but in turn wouldn't playing lots of games against slightly stronger players [b]and[/i] reviewing each one be a sure way to improve? Which leads me to the next point. Why not make it a point to record games on paper, as beginners usually don't have the powers of recall that more experienced Go players would possess?


Slightly stronger players? At least 3 stones stronger is the recommendation of many pros. :)

Recording games is good, but a smart phone or computer is more convenient than pens (one red, one blue or black) and paper. However, beginners should try to replay their games from memory, using the recording as a check. Why? Because relying upon memory builds and cements chunks, or recurring, meaningful patterns of play. Beginners should not make an effort to memorize their own games, however, because that tends to enshrine bad habits. Memorizing pro games is another story. :)

_________________
"Drooling Banjos"

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Becoming better at Go by playing lots of games?
Post #6 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:37 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6076
Liked others: 1426
Was liked: 2325
From a related thread:

negapesuo wrote:
I see many 4k-1d players on KGS with thousands if not tens of thousands of games under there belt, and seem to have been that rank for quite a while. In order to get better, I've been playing quite a lot of games, but this makes it seems like simply playing is not the right move to make.

Up to what point do you think players can get better by simply playing games before hitting a plateau? Is it simply a lack of meaningful review that makes these players stop improving?


Some people plateau at 7 kyu, some as DDKs. There are many reasons. But one thing I have noticed about perpetual SDKs is that they have developed bad habits, and they are drawn to bad moves. There are multiple choice tests of strength with a number of kyu ranks that require results which are below average. Since these tests seem to work OK over many years, that means that lower level kyu players do worse than random choice. That is because bad moves look good to them. (OC, they play much better than random in real games, but not among the choices offered on the tests.)

There are people who reach high amateur dan without cracking a book or magazine. They tend to be fighters. :)

_________________
"Drooling Banjos"

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group