It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:04 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #21 Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:03 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 248
Liked others: 23
Was liked: 148
Rank: DGS 2 kyu
Universal go server handle: Polama
Tsumego with fairly open positions have always overwhelmed me. If it's just a matter of finding the key point in a shape, that's one thing, but for larger formations I'd either throw my hands up in surrender or read meanderingly, exploring one variation, then jumping to another and another.

I've started doing tsumego seriously, and I've been amazed at how much just listing the possible first moves has helped. There might be 20 moves, of which 7 look vaguely possible. So I number them in my head and start exploring one-by-one. If a quick scan of each move doesn't reveal the solution, I go through each one convincing myself this move can't be correct. Sometimes this requires applying the process recursively. Eventually there's one path that I can't convince myself is a dead-end, and further exploration of it usually reveals the key move.

Before I'd read a branch until it felt hopeless and then jump to the next promising looking branch. I'd thus tend to keep jumping back and reading the same thing, never exploring the uncommon moves that end up being the solution. It also gave me a sense that the exploration could go on forever. Having a numbered set to explore makes it feel tractable and keeps me from giving up.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #22 Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:05 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
skydyr wrote:
he would start reading with the move he thought least likely to work, and then work his way up through more likely candidates


Taken literally, this can only be a joke because the tree explodes. However, if he restricts himself to reasonable (common and uncommon) moves, his approach is often slower than necessary but can sometimes reveal unusual moves. Starting with the most promising candidates can do so as well. Therefore, his reported approach alone offers no extra benefit, except maybe a psychological preference in order to get disciplined reading.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #23 Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:32 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 827
Location: UK
Liked others: 568
Was liked: 84
Rank: OGS 9kyu
Universal go server handle: WindnWater, Elom
There is a proper method commonly used by pros

"...I’m glad to hear that you enjoy watching go as well as playing yourself.

There are individual differences in the way professionals use their time allowance, so let me tell you about myself. I’m a slow thinker, and in a game in which I had a 5-hour time allowance I spent close to one hour on just one move. Recently, there are more and more 3-hour games, so one has to be careful with one’s time, but even so I sometimes take 30 minutes on one move.

What do I think about? The first thing is to check that there are no problems with the move that I have thought of instinctively. If there are, I look for another move. Putting it like this makes it sound simple, but, as you know, the difficult thing about go is that one doesn’t get clear answers. I formulate strategies based on the instinctive move and other moves and produce definite shapes in my head, but how to tell which course is the best? Almost all of one’s time on a slow move is spent agonizing over which is actually the better strategy. Quite often, one is unable to reach a conclusion and one just plays the instinctive move one first thought of. Concerning the number of moves, if you count the different variations that branch out from one shape, the total is probably about 100.

The other thing is that one is thinking about the game when it’s one’s turn to move, but it’s the opponent’s turn, one’s mind wanders and one thinks about what to have for lunch, if it’s in the morning, or one takes a look at the other games . . . I really should try harder to concentrate!

I hope that you continue to enjoy go, both as a player and as a spectator."
--Izawa Akino (strong Female pro)

"...It’s hard to generalize about how many moves ahead we read.
When you are thinking about the next move, there are a number of different choices. For each of these, there are then a number of different choices for the next move.
Then for the next move after that . . . If you added up all the different branches, the total would probably be several dozen. However, among the different choices there are some moves that one’s intuition just tells one are no good, so one doesn’t actually read them.
I’m sure that amateurs also would read several dozen moves if they developed their reading ability."
--Suzuki Ayuma (strong Female pro)
"A: Usually professional players, including me, read around 100 moves ahead. But that's not the case for every move. First select 10 candidate moves and then read ahead for each of them. After reading ahead 20 to 30 moves for a candidate move, one could reach a tentative conclusion like "this is a bad shape" or simply "this is not it." At that point, I stop any further reading for that candidate move and look for another. This is a process of elimination that ususally leaves one or two candidate moves. For each of these final candidate moves, I read ahead about 100 moves. This might surprise amateur players, but the more difficult thing is not reading ahead 100 moves, but deciding which of the final cadidate moves gives a better result. .... The most painful moment is when I realize that I am on the wrong way a few move after my original decision. That gives me an agony beyond description. People call me "Stone Buddha" for my lack of facial expression during games. But you will notice some changes in my face when I am in a bad situation. You have to look at my face carefully."
--Lee Chango (Top pro)

_________________
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.


This post by Elom was liked by: tapia
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #24 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:52 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
Quotation reference:
viewtopic.php?p=182584#p182584

John Fairbairn wrote:
Show us RJ's skill of explaining how to solve a problem well so that we can praise or criticise it properly.


Will be seen in the book. Note, however, that the explanation is mainly about the basics for kyu players. Theory for solving middle game reading problems will come in more books in later years. Regardless, the theory is already very useful for local problems, but it is not a complete theory for (high) dan level players; e.g., it does not include every arcane technique yet. I concentrate on the basics first because those are applicable to most problems. Since I know almost nothing about the chess literature on reading, your comparison to them will be fun; I want to know if chess players have developed simlilar reading theory:) Even more interested I am in comparisons with Asian books specialising in the THEORY of reading; unfortunately, I could never find such a book but you have indicated that some such book exists somewhere.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #25 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:13 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1625
Liked others: 542
Was liked: 450
Rank: senior player
GD Posts: 1000
Seems to me that there are different aspects of "reading". For example, the kind of reading done to solve a life-and-death problem, and the kind of reading of the whole board, which involves evaluating territories, value of thickness, etc. Reading to choose a move to make involves the second type but may involve both types. So positional judgement is part of reading. To me the global reading (assessing) of the whole board is more difficult because local reading allows the player to fall back on exhaustive search while global reading does not.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Rumour on Reading
Post #26 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:29 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
There are different kinds (e.g., certain or sparse but insecure), different methods (e.g, regular tactical reading or - on the strategic level - particular methods for selective reading), different aims (e.g., "Can kill?" or "Optimise territory count"), different purposes (e.g., LD status assessment or positional judgement) and different scopes of reading (local, intermediate, global).

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group