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 Post subject: Re: English translation of Shibano's Fuseki Revolution
Post #21 Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:47 pm 
Gosei

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John Fairbairn wrote:
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let smart AI developers work on ways that that take us humans along for the ride, giving us better resources and access for improving ourselves.


I don't think knotwilg (or anyone else) is disagreeing with this as an aspiration. As I understood it, he was just being more practical about whether it is actually practicable.

Even the cargo-cult believers in go AI have already discovered that bots are not yet capable of making (m)any of us stronger. So they switch to the next tack: it's just a matter of time before AI bots will be able to explain to us what they are doing. Maybe, maybe not.

But an even deeper question that is rarely addressed and never yet answered underlies that: if bots do learn to explain what they are doing, will it make any practical difference?

In a sense we already know certain things they are doing. One is reading to super-deep levels at incredible speed. Allied to that is that they rarely if ever make computational mistakes, or forget things, or have a bad-hair day, etc, etc. No matter how well bots explain all of that in detail, we humans can't in practice match that, and maybe never will even with brain chip implants.

To take what I think may be a more realistic go example. It may be that bots will tell us that the sides, relative to the corners, are rather more important than humans usually assume. There are some grounds for believing that already from human experience. At least it has been noticed that certain humans who know a thing or two about winning at go, such as Honinbo Dosaku, Go Seigen and Fan Xiping, do emphasise the sides more than other other players. Yet despite having been able to make that observation, next to none of these other players have been able to reach their level. The likeliest explanation so far, based on AI matches of their play, is simply that they read deeper than most other players.

If bots end up telling us that, likewise, they are better because they can handle ALL such ultra-complex situations reliably, which is actually several giant steps further on from trying to emulate the baby steps of Go Seigen or Dosaku, surely it is no surprise that some people make a clear distinction between "bots explaining things to us" and "bots explaining things to us we can actually use." How you view that distinction can vary enormously, of course, but it seems useful to many of us at least to make the distinction.

If we look at reasons why some people refuse to acknowledge the distinction, a quasi-religious belief in Mankind may be part of it - as with climate change (Mankind has solved such problems in the past and so will solve them in the future; hey, who turned the lights out?). My own view is that a more likely reason in most cases is simply that certain humans love bling. AI is the ultimate bling accessory.


So far AI can certainly show us some interesting tactics, e.g. early 3-3 invasions, more attachments, etc. An interesting use of AI is in studying out own games. There is a strong Korean player "Baduk Doctor" who plays games on Fox with pros, showing the game on Youtube. What interested me is that when Baduk Doctor loses he uses AI to see where he lost the game. This is not following AI teaching, rather it is looking where Baduk Doctor made a strategic error or mis-estimated the position. This is what we would get if we showed our game to a pro to get the same information, without getting explanation of why the error was made.

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 Post subject: Re: English translation of Shibano's Fuseki Revolution
Post #22 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:02 am 
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hzamir wrote:
gowan wrote:
... Well, I got off the topic of Shibano's book, but what I find the most interesting thing about it is that Shibano explains why many of the strange-looking AI moves work.


I think AI will not have really arrived until they have cracked the real AI challenge: AIs should be able to provide human comments on their own games, explaining to us humans why they work.


The DeepMind team did something making a start on this for chess. Here is the preprint:
https://arxiv.org/abs/2111.09259


This post by drmwc was liked by 2 people: dhu163, Ferran
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 Post subject: Re: English translation of Shibano's Fuseki Revolution
Post #23 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:22 am 
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The book has just been released as an ebook by SmartGo Books.
https://gobooks.com

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