Life In 19x19 :: Joseki Dictionary

Ishida's three volume dictionary was first published 33 years ago, translated from an even earlier Japanese edition. As a result much of the book is out of date. Especially the part on 4-4 point joseki is weak. A lot of developments in 4-4 point joseki occurred after the Ishida books were published. In the other volumes there are variations listed as joseki, i.e. even results locally for both players, but which are no longer considered joseki by professionals. A new edition in Japanese was published in 2009, edited by Takao Shinji. Ishida's disctionary is so old ... we need a newer version. I hope the Takao edition will be translated.

There are two aspects to studying joseki. First is the idea of a sequence of moves locally giving an equal result. Studying these you can learn a lot about positional judgement, shape, and tesuji. The idea is not just to memorize sequences of moves but try to understand why each move was made, what is wrong with alternatives, and how to take advantage of errors. This is a life-long project. The second aspect is learning when to play joseki depending on the whole board position. Probably the best book about this is Yilun Yang's Whole Board Thinking in Joseki These books give you wonderful knowledge of how large scale issues affect somewhat distant corner developments.

Another way to study joseki is to play through lots and lots of pro games, watching what they do in corner sequences.

The Ishida books are OOP now (not sure about vol 1, but at least 2 and 3), so if you want them and your local book seller have them you should get them ASAP.

Regarding tchan001's desire to have the Nihon Ki-in's new updated two volume joseki dictionary by Takao Shinji (published in January 2010) translated into English, I am pleased to inform him and other members of this site that Kiseido is hard at work translating this work. We expect the first volume to be published in the fall of 2010 and the second volume in early 2011.

Copies of the Ishida dictionary are still available at Kiseido's office in the USA.

Are there only two volumes? How big, compared to the Ishida?

Does already anybody know the japanese edtion of the joseki dictionary by Takao Shinji?
Is this dictionary a full replacement for the Ishida dictionary or only a supplement containing modern josekis?
I am looking for a nice reference, but i don't care so much about the "out of date"-issue. But when i spend my money, it would nice to have, of course. ;-)

I'm looking for a basic english Joseki dictionary. I've been using Kogo's, but I've heard some pretty bad things about how well maintained it is and/or it's accuracy. I see that Kiseido has the Dictionary of Basic Joseki in 3 parts by Ishida Yoshio.

I didn't know if there were any other books. I'm not looking for a problem book or anything, just something as a reference, to look up things when reviewing games.

Author:	Kirby [ Wed May 19, 2010 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
gowan wrote: Ishida's three volume dictionary was first published 33 years ago, translated from an even earlier Japanese edition. As a result much of the book is out of date. Especially the part on 4-4 point joseki is weak. A lot of developments in 4-4 point joseki occurred after the Ishida books were published. In the other volumes there are variations listed as joseki, i.e. even results locally for both players, but which are no longer considered joseki by professionals. A new edition in Japanese was published in 2009, edited by Takao Shinji. Ishida's disctionary is so old ... we need a newer version. I hope the Takao edition will be translated. There are two aspects to studying joseki. First is the idea of a sequence of moves locally giving an equal result. Studying these you can learn a lot about positional judgement, shape, and tesuji. The idea is not just to memorize sequences of moves but try to understand why each move was made, what is wrong with alternatives, and how to take advantage of errors. This is a life-long project. The second aspect is learning when to play joseki depending on the whole board position. Probably the best book about this is Yilun Yang's Whole Board Thinking in Joseki These books give you wonderful knowledge of how large scale issues affect somewhat distant corner developments. Another way to study joseki is to play through lots and lots of pro games, watching what they do in corner sequences. It doesn't matter if Ishida's is out of date. If you study the book, read the explanation, and think for yourself, it is still a great resource. Ishida's gives sequences that are said not to be joseki. But seeing the sequence and learning about the thought process is still most important. I recommend getting Ishida's, but just remember: think for yourself. You should do that with any joseki book, anyway.

Author:	amnal [ Wed May 19, 2010 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
If a single professional ever in their wildest dreams considered a sequence joseki, it's good enough for me. Do not get hung up on 'this is out of date' ideas. It really has no value. Just keep an open mind. Even when joseki are 'in date', a surprising amount of skill lies in adapting them to the situation - when can you tenuki, or play a strange move, etc. Ishida is excellent, in my opinion, for anyone wanting a thorough joseki reference. It doesn't contain every joseki, it doesn't have all the details of the joseki it does go into, it has some sequences that maybe aren't played much any more, but to be honest the same is probably true of any higher level go book. Overall, it's as good value as any go book, and its content is excellent. Sakata's guide to fuseki and joseki is a great example - he suggests some lines that don't seem to have ever been played by professionals, but the fact that Sakata considered them playable is enough to make them worthwhile to me

Author:	mohsart [ Thu May 20, 2010 8:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
The Ishida books are OOP now (not sure about vol 1, but at least 2 and 3), so if you want them and your local book seller have them you should get them ASAP. They may be reprinted, maybe even in a revised edition, but I have no information about if either will happen... /Mats

Author:	dfan [ Thu May 20, 2010 8:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
mohsart wrote: The Ishida books are OOP now (not sure about vol 1, but at least 2 and 3), so if you want them and your local book seller have them you should get them ASAP. Kiseido, the publisher, claims to have them in stock. I don't know if that's the last that they have or something.

Author:	mohsart [ Thu May 20, 2010 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
I have that information from the European distibuter Het Paard, on December 13 they wrote "K22, k23 Ishida joseki encyclopedia Now SOLD OUT. A decision about reprints has not yet been made." and they have them marked as "out of print" on their homepage. Of course the books could have been reprinted, but I would assume that I would have been supplied with that information if so. I don't know if Kiseido are bad at updating or if there has been a misunderstanding... Edit: I sent Kiseido a email for clarification, so no need for others to do that ;) /Mats

Life In 19x19 http://lifein19x19.com/

Joseki Dictionary http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=569	Page 2 of 3

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Thu May 20, 2010 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
For those of you in Europe, there is an underpriced set of Ishida in Switzerland, listed at http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDet ... 78%26y%3D8

Author:	mohsart [ Thu May 20, 2010 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
Swift answer from Kiseido: "Our USA office in California still have a few copies. Please order directly from them. Their email address is info@kiseido.com" I have one or two copies myself, and other vendors may have some too, of course. /Mats

Author:	tchan001 [ Thu May 20, 2010 8:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
You would hope that effort would be made to translate the recently released updated Japanese edition of the joseki dictionary given the age of the past edition.

Author:	Richard Bozulich [ Sun May 23, 2010 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
Regarding tchan001's desire to have the Nihon Ki-in's new updated two volume joseki dictionary by Takao Shinji (published in January 2010) translated into English, I am pleased to inform him and other members of this site that Kiseido is hard at work translating this work. We expect the first volume to be published in the fall of 2010 and the second volume in early 2011. Copies of the Ishida dictionary are still available at Kiseido's office in the USA.

Author:	imabuddha [ Sun May 23, 2010 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
Richard Bozulich wrote: Regarding tchan001's desire to have the Nihon Ki-in's new updated two volume joseki dictionary by Takao Shinji (published in January 2010) translated into English, I am pleased to inform him and other members of this site that Kiseido is hard at work translating this work. That's great news! By the way, thank you for all that you've done for so many years now to bring go knowledge to the English readers of the world! From what I've read this effort has at times come at a great personal cost. Many of the books you've written and published are among the most cherished in my library.

Author:	tchan001 [ Sun May 23, 2010 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
Richard Bozulich wrote: Regarding tchan001's desire to have the Nihon Ki-in's new updated two volume joseki dictionary by Takao Shinji (published in January 2010) translated into English, I am pleased to inform him and other members of this site that Kiseido is hard at work translating this work. We expect the first volume to be published in the fall of 2010 and the second volume in early 2011. Copies of the Ishida dictionary are still available at Kiseido's office in the USA. Thanks for the great news. Will look forward to buying it when it is ready for purchase.

Author:	kirkmc [ Mon May 24, 2010 1:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
Richard Bozulich wrote: Regarding tchan001's desire to have the Nihon Ki-in's new updated two volume joseki dictionary by Takao Shinji (published in January 2010) translated into English, I am pleased to inform him and other members of this site that Kiseido is hard at work translating this work. We expect the first volume to be published in the fall of 2010 and the second volume in early 2011. Excellent news! Thanks for sharing. Are there only two volumes? How big, compared to the Ishida?

Author:	tchan001 [ Mon May 24, 2010 1:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
Just wondering if we can also expect upcoming translations of the updated fuseki dictionary edited by Yoda Norimoto from 2008. The Rin Kaiho edition is also quite old.

Author:	oren [ Mon May 24, 2010 9:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
kirkmc wrote: Are there only two volumes? How big, compared to the Ishida? The Ishida dictionary was also two volumes in the original format.

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Author:	Dante31 [ Wed May 26, 2010 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
The newest Joseki dictionary in Japan was published in 2010 in 2 volumes: Volume 1 Volume 2 Worth getting for those looking to have the more modern joseki.

Author:	Nagilum [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
Does already anybody know the japanese edtion of the joseki dictionary by Takao Shinji? Is this dictionary a full replacement for the Ishida dictionary or only a supplement containing modern josekis? I am looking for a nice reference, but i don't care so much about the "out of date"-issue. But when i spend my money, it would nice to have, of course.

Author:	averell [ Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
Nagilum wrote: Does already anybody know the japanese edtion of the joseki dictionary by Takao Shinji? Is this dictionary a full replacement for the Ishida dictionary or only a supplement containing modern josekis? I am looking for a nice reference, but i don't care so much about the "out of date"-issue. But when i spend my money, it would nice to have, of course. I have it, and it is not a supplement, but a full dictionary. There are no more example games though, but that's what databases are for, and also fuseki dictionaries. I don't understand any japanese, so i can't tell if the text is useful, but variations that are common are marked especially.

Author:	Oroth [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
Richard Bozulich wrote: Regarding tchan001's desire to have the Nihon Ki-in's new updated two volume joseki dictionary by Takao Shinji (published in January 2010) translated into English, I am pleased to inform him and other members of this site that Kiseido is hard at work translating this work. We expect the first volume to be published in the fall of 2010 and the second volume in early 2011. Amazing! I'm super excited for this. I've always considered buying the Ishida dictionary, but been hesitant because of the age.

Author:	usagi [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
Ellisdee wrote: I'm looking for a basic english Joseki dictionary. I've been using Kogo's, but I've heard some pretty bad things about how well maintained it is and/or it's accuracy. I see that Kiseido has the Dictionary of Basic Joseki in 3 parts by Ishida Yoshio. I didn't know if there were any other books. I'm not looking for a problem book or anything, just something as a reference, to look up things when reviewing games. I've heard Kogo's has many "mistakes" - I even found one of them. A long time ago I saw it listed a joseki that Go Seigen said was good, as being bad. My suggestion for improvement was not taken well, I might add. Nowadays when I want joseki info, I use kombilo and select only one corner. I have over 150,000 games in my kombilo. For me, if a pro didn't recommend the move or play it, I'm not interested

Author:	rottenhat [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Joseki Dictionary
Richard Bozulich wrote: Regarding tchan001's desire to have the Nihon Ki-in's new updated two volume joseki dictionary by Takao Shinji (published in January 2010) translated into English, I am pleased to inform him and other members of this site that Kiseido is hard at work translating this work. We expect the first volume to be published in the fall of 2010 and the second volume in early 2011. Copies of the Ishida dictionary are still available at Kiseido's office in the USA. John Power was visiting the Dublin club this week and mentioned in passing that translation work was taking longer than they had expected, and that the first volume is now scheduled for spring 2011. He also said that the new dictionary is the same length as the old one, and consequently for every new variation or diagram there is an older one that is being excluded. His opinion was that it won't render Ishida's dictionary redundant.