I'd like to do a bit of study of joseki theory and would like to get some recommendations for a 14-15 kyu player. I'm interested in studying either 38 Basic Joseki or the Get Strong at Joseki volumes. Does anyone have any opinions as to which is better for someone to do some basic studying of joseki? The Get Strong At books look attractive with their problem approach, but I would need to buy volumes I and III, since I am primarily interested in studying 4-4 and 3-4 joseki sequences (initially, at least). If the Get Strong at Joseki series are more highly recommended, it might be worth the extra expense.

Also, I'm not really interested in an exhaustive joseki dictionary. I merely want to study the basics, and the theory behind them (the "why?" of the sequences). I feel that this is an area on which I really need some improvement (in addition to learning how to better respond to invasions). Thanks.

I haven't read Robert Jasiek Joseki books but from what I read about them, they would be much better. Don't know if they are good for a double digit kyu. I read 38 basic joseki and it wasn't helpful for me. I read it when I was something around 10 kyu on kgs, and it was most probably the least helpful go book I read till now. I don' think that a problem book approach to joseki is good when You have no knowledge about joseki before that...

EDIT: I do recommend Opening Theory Made Easy, this is the best book for double digit players IMO. Opening Theory Made Easy + Tesuji will be sufficient to reach 5k kgs I think.

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Formerly Gorim

I agree with Gorim in that a book on opening strategy would probably be far more worthwhile than a Joseki book for overall game improvement. Memorizing the very common basic josekis will be helpful, but there is little point in studying the more complicated variations at your stage. A book on the opening will teach you enough about joseki and give you a much stronger overall foundation.

1) 38 Basic Joseki and Get Strong at Joseki are above your level, even if you want dictionary selection or problem books.

2) It is a very good idea to ask for the Why, but... joseki reasoning has many aspects and, at your level, you cannot expect to understand a complete answer. Therefore I do not suggest you more books than those mentioned further below yet. What you can expect is to get a partial answer for the Why, as far as an answer is suitable for your level.

3) The most suitable books for you are / will be: "Joseki 1 Fundamentals". In hopefully a few weeks, I will publish a new book, probable title "First Fundamentals", which helps double digit kyus to become single digit kyus and has a) a short section on joseki and teaches exactly the few things a double digit kyu must know and b) an explanation of good shapes, with which josekis can be formed more easily.

4) Once you are about 10 kyu, you can read more books on the topic. However, my suggestion is that you do become 10 kyu first, also with the help of the (3) books and the advice to learn from your mistakes.

5) If you really need to practice more reading, read Graded Go Problems. This is joseki-unrelated but who cares. Reading is reading. What you need is problems easy enough for you.

Why? After having studied a hundred beginners' games, it is not my impression that beginners need opening theory (they understand basic opening theory!). Rather they need advice on the fundamentals such as "Big space is better than small space." and "Avoid bad contact plays for attack.". Such principles are simpler but mightier than opening principles and more helpful.

For beginners, opening strategy really must be: avoid beginner mistakes!

I have read Opening Theory Made Easy two times, and really enjoy it. I think it has been enormously useful. Obviously, it contains some examples of common josekis, although the content is more strategy-related than mere standard corner sequences. I understand the contents of the book easily, and the author's explanations as to why a move is good or not make sense, but it seems to take a while to be able to consistently notice and apply those strategies and the author's 20 principles to actual games--that is why I have really been focusing on playing more games (one every day or two, time permitting) in addition to regular reading.

I seem to do okay at the main parts of the opening, but tend to start faltering when dealing with opponents' invasions. Opening Theory Made Easy discusses how to deal with invasions and how to invade your opponent (having backup, etc.), but I think that I sort of panic when I see the opponent invade, and probably overplay in response, making the situation worse. I'd really like to read "Attack and Defense," as this is the part of the game I would really like to study, but I know it's probably a bit advanced for me. I do have a copy of it though, when I get to that level of play.

Part of my interest in studying joseki stems from wondering how best to respond to an opponent's approach of my corners. Fuseki books seem to explain why to play in certain areas in the beginning, the difference between important points such as 3-3, 4-4, 4-3, etc., and concepts of territory vs. influence, but they don't seem to explain much about how to respond to opponents' approaches (beyond one move, at least) and the contact plays that often follow (making up the joseki).





Robert, you think that your Joseki: Fundamentals is useful for an interested 14-kyu? I looked at the sample pages and liked your approach to the subject, at least from the few pages I saw. After all, if your book is just about the fundamentals of joseki, that's all I'm really interested in, not memorizing hundreds of variations.

Also, I do have volumes I-III of Graded Go Problems and solve problems from them regularly. I actually enjoy solving them. I've read volume I once, and have read volume II nearly twice. With the second reading, I've been able to solve about 90-95 percent correctly, though some do take a few minutes. I have started Volume III yet, but from what I've looked at, it does seem quite a bit harder.

Greetings,
I do most of my studying at the GuoJuan school. As far as I can see they value learning at least ten basic joseki very highly in the early stages. The two regular teachers, Guo and Jennie Shen offer two basic reasons. First they help you to not mess up the corners. Seconds, they help you learn basic shapeshifter, a point they return to again and again throughout all the courses they offer.
Maybe the problem with joseki texts is that they are systematic!
What I mean by this is that one gets a complete picture when what one really needs is the absolutely most useful things and nothing more. There is so much else to learn and so little time in a day.
Studying at the Juan school exposes one to carefully selected josekis that come up time and time again. An interesting example is the Kobayashi joseki which may not even be in most books.Technically it's probably classified as a higher level joseki but it's incredibly simple an dpowerful. That's the kind of stuff beginners like me can really use.
I think the opening requires a lot more training than people think.
One can of course reduce it to a series of simple concepts .Got no argument with that's. My point is that there are perhaps more than a few ideas necessary and putting them into practice requires constant repetition land thought outside the game itself. For this reason my game really improved when I spent hours working on the problems presented as Opening Training by Juan.
I have also been told to basically spend half my time playing game sand half my time doing tsumego.
Best wishes,
Buri

between 38 Basic Joseki and the Get Strong at Joseki series I'd vote for 38 Basic Joseki as the first book (I have both), however I think to internalise the sequences you're learning about it would be useful to use the DailyJoseki website as well.

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I am John. John-I-Am.

My favorite beginner joseki book is "Joseki Jeongseok Compass" (2009). It has twenty different joseki -- with practice problems, professional game examples, and how to punish deviations for each joseki.

It is a good book, but please tell me how you profit from its opening principles! What you mention above and by referring to Attack and Defense is about middle game principles.



Yes.



Of course, it is "just about" the fundamentals! Everything more advanced is in the other two volumes.

This statement says nothing because there are very different systems with which josekis can be presented. Some systems do not encourage learning - others do. (And not all josekis texts are systematic at all; often missing structure is a great problem.)



More important than specific josekis is general advice on the fundamentals.



Why? I understand such a statement from a 3 kyu, but why does a beginner need much opening theory?! His best opening theory is to avoid all beginners' mistakes (such as playing premature endgame or not defending important weak groups) and choose the big spaces!

I don't want to distract too much from the OP's topic, but I agree with Robert that at the OP's level, working on the so-called "fundamentals" is more important than reading specifically about joseki. Fundamentals though, are notoriously difficult to get a handle on, and as Kageyama points out in his Lessons on the Fundamentals of Go, it's something that players need to re-focus on at every stage of their development.

There isn't really any comprehensive overview of the fundamentals however, and the subject is wide-ranging. I think Robert is on the right track by suggesting that the OP focus first on learning to avoid a few of the most common mistakes. I was however struck by one his suggestions:



I've recently heard this from another player around Robert's strength, and it's advice that I hadn't heard before so explicitly. Is this a fundamental principle?

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Patience, grasshopper.

Yes, it's so basic and intuitively obvious I probably first heard of it at around 28k,
and probably started sharing it with others soon afterwards.
Also, like all the usual suspects, it comes with the caveat,
"except for all the infinite special cases when it doesn't apply."

Yilun Yang often teaches play the big spaces in his lectures and has a good covering of fundamentals that players should know.

No. Previous authors have said so, but simply because they have not studied the fundamentals carefully enough to teach them in a simple manner! In my next book, you will see just HOW very simple fundamentals are :) But... I needed many years to reach this kind of insight. Before, I was in the same mode of searching for the fundamentals and studying the details in yet greater detail for the sake of finding fundamentals.



If you wait some more years, there will be! I need more time to extend the scope beyond the fundamentals for josekis or for beginners :)



Yes.

As EdLee points out, everything has exceptions. One such exception occurs if the big space is neutral or almost neutral.

It is a fundamental principle though and a variety of the more generally worded "Choose the big and valuable.", which can refer to spaces, gaps, groups, directions etc. (More you can find in chapter 1 of my next book, if you don't mind to read some written mainly for beginners.)

Well, I guess that depends on what exactly constitutes the opening. I don’t know that there is always a definitive line that separates the opening from the beginning of the middle game, or at least a beginner such as myself is not able to clearly distinguish when exactly the middle game begins, though I tend to think of it as beginning when the corners and sides have mostly been played and yes, when invasions or reductions begin. I would say that Opening Theory Made Easy is most valuable for its specific principles (family feuds waste resources, don’t attach to weak stones, etc.), which can really be applied to many parts of the game, not just the opening.

If the opening is defined as just playing the corner points, side enclosures, and perhaps a few joseki sequences, then I agree that this doesn’t seem to take much study. If I remember correctly, Janice Kim discusses basic opening principles in volumes II, IV, and V of her Learn to Play Go books, so perhaps this is sufficient if one wants to know the very essentials of the opening. I recall that Volume IV: Battle Strategies mostly discusses middle game attack and defense strategies at a basic level, so I should probably give that book another read. It’s interesting how much clearer I’ve found some of these books as I progress and read them for a second time.

So, maybe the book has been more useful for the early middle game, depending on how that is defined. Nonetheless, I find it enjoyable to read and feel like it has certainly improved my understanding of the game overall.

Good luck for you! Most DDKs do not apply the principle regularly.

Might be:) Anyway, when hearing "opening theory", I am reminded of such things: "The symmetry of the 4-4 allows tenuki." "Avoid opposing 3-4s as the defender." "Consider the positional relation [from a corner] to stones elsewhere, in particular the adjacent corners." I am also reminded of stupid "advice" found in too many books: "Corners, then sides, then center." "Urgent moves before big moves." Another class of opening theory deals with specific study of specific opening patterns.

From your description, Otakes book has little of that. (I do not recall; it is too long ago that I browsed through the book quickly; I was too strong for it when it appeared and was already reading thick opening dictionaries :) )

Isn't the advice contained in the two italicized passages the same, except for wording?

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Occupy Babel!

Mh… for me as a mere ca. 12k the two italicized passages are different: The first one (defend important weak groups) seems easier to grasp, less aetherical. Well, I guess I can understand “weak” even more than “important”, I guess. The second passage seems waaaaay over my head—how shall I be able to distinguish between urgent and big?

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“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?