What is the most up-to-date english book? Is there any better book in another language, that I could decently read without knowing the language at all?

Also im interested in such things as probes to see how the opponent will respond before choosing a joseki that you often hear korean pros talk about

Example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For the joseki book, I've replied you in a similar post viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7085

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

move number 2 is questionable, playing at a is much normal.

Here is the continuation. You can see the exact same pattern in many pro games played recently.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sometimes also this one.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O . 3 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Connection for the probe is considered inferior in modern research.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c inferior
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , 5 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Those published recently and having contents that is checked with databases.



Concerning early joseki probes, the best sources are fuseki books. The best books on strategic choices in joseki are those having such contents, except that fuseki books are a better source for early joseki probes. "such things as" is a wide field; please specify more clearly what else you are interested in.

It's not the most up-to-date (about 10 years old) but this Korean style fuseki book has a chapter on exactly that approach probe you asked about. Also I (and more importantly the many pros who have played it) disagree with rlaalwso that is questionable. Certainly the shape he shows is the latest fashion, but I'm not aware (please explain the new judgement if I am wrong) that the outside approach is considered inferior.

There is also Takao's newer joseki dictionary, but that's just joseki not fuseki. I really like that Korean fuseki book and credit it with a large part of my fuseki understanding. I think it would be a good fit for the self-professed gaps in NoSkill's game.

It is a good practice to complement a josekibook with a database of professional games of your own. It is very interesting to see what josekis are more popular and in what positions.

Oh really? I need to look over that book alot more . I had been reading it for the sanrensei and low chinese stuff, was figuring to get to the mini-chinese, high chinese, kobyashi etc later. Didn't realize it has this in it as well, excellent.

That book is NOT excellent. Its major weakness: For center influence positions, the move suggestions are suboptimal to weak. For high dans, the books tells almost nothing new. If you are aware of these limitations, the book can be useful - but why not read a book series without these limitations (Rin Kaiho)?

Can you give me a link to rin's book since you keep recommending it ?

Its a 4 book fuseki dictionary series, not about josekis I guess:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?DictionaryOfBasicFuseki

http://senseis.xmp.net/?DictionaryOfBasicFusekiVol1

Here is the link to the first volume, there are 4 in total.

_________________
Formerly Gorim

I second the motion on a database. But I have been a GoGoD junkie since 2002 (summer edition IIRC ). If you don't want to spend the money to buy all the updates, you can buy the current version for the 70,000+ game background and then add new game records from the internet to the database yourself. I find GoGoD much more informative and easy to quickly search than any of the books that I have. There is no commentary so you have to think about what you find there yourself. However, the most obvious thing that you will immediately realize is that there is much more variety and endless experimentation going on than any of the books can possibly describe.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

You could also get a Taiwanese edition in 2 volumes, if you could find it:)

Exactly. The strength and weaknesses of databases versus go theory books. Databases let you find everything if only you know what to search - go theory books (should) tell you what to know and search:)

I didn't think it had many centre influence moves, focusing as it does on the first <~50 moves usually around the corners and sides. Do you have some examples of these weak moves? One that springs to mind is the reduction after taking both corners in the san ren sei. Afaik this is a good move. Also what is your basis for saying it has weak moves? I don't know how strong the original author was, but the translator is stronger than you so would have thought not too many howlers would be let through.

I agree it won't help high dans, but for a 1d with 5k level fuseki, I think it's good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Weak?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm interested that you recommend Rin's book, I've seen that around but not read it; I'll take a look sometime.

Rin's book in Japan came out around the same time as Ishida's Joseki. Like Ishida's Joseki book being updated, Rin's was updated in 2008 with Yoda Norimoto as the author. I'm not sure if anyone is translating it to English.

Rin's 基本 布石 事典 (basic fuseki dictionary) is available as a two-volume edition in Japanese.
It has been published originally in 1978, a (maybe revised) newer edition has been published in 1996.

Like Ishida's Jôseki Dictionary, there is a new version of this book available now, published in 2008.
This is 新版 基本布石事典 (new edition - basic fuseki dictionary) by Yoda Norimoto, e.g. available with amazon.co.jp:

http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/481820594X
http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4818205958

2,520 Yen each.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

Not ready at hand. I would need to parse the book to find them again.



My years of non-stop experience with and related understanding of center influence strategy.



The problem is mainly related to center influence moves (when the shapes are non-standard ones, i.e. not san-ren-sei) and is rather systematic throughout the book, although only a few diagrams are affected because rather few show greatly emphasised center influence patterns.

Your san-ren-sei example shows a correct move.

Robert Jasiek said:

I'm not saying this is necessarily wrong, just raising a note of caution. The notion of a "centre-influence strategy" seems too naive for a pro and doesn't seem to me to accord with how such positions are written about in Japanese. While duly noting the proviso about non-standard positions, my sense of what is going on is that it is more likely that the pro is playing what Matthew Macfadyen brilliantly called a virtual-territory strategy. In other words, a large area is mapped out and Black (here) is saying, "I've created a space in which I can make two (or sometimes three) territories. If you play inside my large area, I don't know which portions will turn into territory for me, but one of them (the virtual territory) will for certain." This accords with commentaries on such games which accentuate the sides rather than the centre. Of course the centre is still the elephant in the room. If the opponent ignores that aspect, the centre can dominate, but at pro level I think it rarely does.

Since a virtual-territory strategy typically includes aspects such as the sides as well as the centre, which adds richness in the form of heightened-value early boundary plays, as well probes and invasions, so that there is a greater range of options for both sides than with a centre-influence strategy, which tends to be simplistic, I'd be inclined to believe that Rin's suggestions take account of all that richness, and his moves are more likely to be correct than those of a one-trick pony.

I considered such alternatives because I had been used to apply them.