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 Post subject: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new version
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:14 am 
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Until now only 10 games, but all of them won!
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/cross ... -2c1g.html
Maybe new hero is born?


Last edited by kris on Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:48 am 
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Hard to compare because it's 2c1g (2 cpu + 1 gpu). The strongest and latest 1c0g is still 14.8. But I get that the developer want to test if it works well on better hardware because Zen has to participate in MLily Cup next week.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:00 am 
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So you think it's exactly this version with only 2CPU & 1GPU that will play on MLily Cup as DeepZenGo?

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #4 Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:39 am 
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kris wrote:
So you think it's exactly this version with only 2CPU & 1GPU that will play on MLily Cup as DeepZenGo?

It'll be this version but on a much better hardware. They just try out if multi CPU and GPU work correctly. If it's not exceed Zen-14.7-2c1g then something might gone wrong. They'll fix it, or simply revert back to using Zen-14.7-2c1g version.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:08 am 
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After 20 games still unbeatable!
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #6 Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:16 am 
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Not lost yet, here is a game vs Zen 14.6

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #7 Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:30 am 
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Zen-15.0-1c0g is on the way. This'll be easier for comparison

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #8 Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:39 am 
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Zen-15.0-2c1g will probably be significantly above 4000 Elo on CGOS: it is 13/13 against Zen-14.6-1c1g, which is around 3815 Elo!
Impressive...

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #9 Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:52 am 
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Their rating is quite conservative (and I'd say a bit strange): Zen15.0 has a 100% score against all programs (one being 3580 Elo) excepted Zen14.6 where it has 90% win rate (18 wins over 20 games), and Zen14.6 is around 3815 Elo.
Normalyy, a 90% win rate is around 380 Elo difference (as they state it here : http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/), so Zen15.0 should be around 4200... Maybe a bit less, because the 90% is not well established and the true % may be only around 80%, but that is still a 250 Elo difference, hence Zen15.0 is very probably 4050 or more Elo, but it's currently rating is "only" 3968. Hence, in a few days, it should continue to go up and stabilize around 4100 / 4200, we'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #10 Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:15 am 
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In the next thirteen hours check this page
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/bayes.html
For more accurate rating and ranking.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #11 Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:27 am 
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pookpooi wrote:
In the next thirteen hours check this page
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/bayes.html
For more accurate rating and ranking.

Nice, didn't see that before, thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #12 Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:23 am 
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Auuhhh, when are they going to stop making it stronger and instead prepare a commercial release? :)

Anyways, this is really cool, thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #13 Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:02 am 
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lightvector wrote:
Auuhhh, when are they going to stop making it stronger and instead prepare a commercial release? :)

Anyways, this is really cool, thanks!


Yes it's now time to buy Zen 15. or it will be useless to develop it, when no one can buy it and use it.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #14 Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:43 am 
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From http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/news/release ... ngo_1.html
Japan Go Association will use DeepZenGo to strengthening Japanese National Team until the end of this year
So Zen may exclusively used within professional body for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #15 Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:43 am 
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Quote:
Japan Go Association will use DeepZenGo to strengthening Japanese National Team until the end of this year
So Zen may exclusively used within professional body for a while.


I would be interested in hearing from someone, such as uberdude, who is actively trying t get strong in actual play, what they think of the training method used here.

The national training squad is essentially an ongoing tournament of quickplay games at 1 minute per move and the DeepZen games will be same (via the internet). Since DeepZen is not yet demonstrably much stronger than the human opponents/coaches, I'm not sure what extra the players will get out of the DeepZen games, beyond perhaps a nebulous familiarity with computer-style play.

Given that the purpose of this exercise is to boost the strength of the squad, would it not be more logical to allow them to use DeepZen to suggest moves in test positions input by the pros? I can understand that amateurs might find it boring to do this with databases, but when national pride is at stake.... And why no tests at longer time limits? After all, pros will be playing DeepZen at longer time limits in the Mlily.

Or do I underestimate the value of actual play and overestimate thinking about go theory?

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #16 Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:00 am 
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Some thoughts:

* If Zen's policy and value nets are strong enough to start to have some AlphaGo-like qualities in the opening and early-middle-game and to produce some innovations in joseki, then even if Zen overall is not clearly stronger, playing it a bunch could have plenty of value.

* Given that new-generation Go bots are strongest in whole-board judgment and weaker at complex fights or races, I could also see value in playing the first 100 moves with it a whole bunch to practice just the opening and early midgame, where Zen is most likely to be super-human and have things to teach, particularly if you also get to see Zen's evaluation (getting very rapid feedback about Zen's opinions on different positions).

* Exclusively only using Zen as an opponent would be strange. If Zen is at least close in strength to the players, then there should be a lot of value in also playing games with each other rather than Zen (so as to practice against humans and not just bots), and renting a bunch of servers and running Zen overnight with long-time-control searches on critical parts of those games for analysis for moves where Zen might have useful suggestions to study. The long searches should improve any weakness in Zen a bit and make use of a plentiful resource that would otherwise go unused - overnight computation time.

* Having Zen suggest moves "one by one" in hand-crafted positions would probably be a pretty inefficient way to use a bot. It's the 2%-5% of moves where you make a notable mistake or where the bot would play something innovative and interesting that you want to focus your study, as most of the time it will consider and suggest the same moves you would. Playing games whether with Zen or other players, and having Zen sweep over all the moves in the whole game and finding points where it disagrees is a good way to get around this.


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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #17 Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:18 am 
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I don't understand the point of zen software when they don't update it for 2 years.
Why make such advancements but then refuse to update software for people who bought it.

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #18 Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:14 pm 
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After 200 games Zen 15.0 is number one. Over 100 ELO better then previous version:
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/bayes.html

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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #19 Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Mlily Cup 1st Round DeepZenGo won with Shin Minjun 5p:



Attachments:
2017-06-19 Shin Minjun - DeepZenGo.sgf [1.37 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Zen 15.0 on CGOS very strong new wersion
Post #20 Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:55 pm 
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kris wrote:
After 200 games Zen 15.0 is number one. Over 100 ELO better then previous version:
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/bayes.html

Click refresh, see Zen-15.0-1c0g
It's a little bit weaker than Zen-14.8-1c0g
So 15.0 is not the best that Zen could offer
Plus, they begin to test on 14.9, so something might gone wrong in 15.0?
But don't get me wrong, all of these little tiny version perform very similar that the difference is not statistically significant

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